Lapis Lazuli

[john]

But the question of regulation, taxation..

The quintessential 'chicken and egg' question, Stan.

Did the trade exist first or did the governments along the way exist first?

IOW, were the merchants clamoring for 'protection' from the hazards of the journey and thus governments arose to provide that service, OR, did trade arise after governments were established to control certain areas in the first place?

the hanseatic league gives a hint.........

j

[Minimalist]

I don't know how appropriate that model is to Afghanistan, 6000 years ago?

[john]

I don't know how appropriate that model is to Afghanistan, 6000 years ago?

it is my opinion that merchants, or producers, quickly figured out that armed escorts protecting the product from theft during transit increased the profiit margin. later, they defied both governments ("legal theft"), i.e. government's tendency to take a percentage (money for nothing, and the chicks for free) and various attempts by "criminal" elements.

so what part of the difference between government and criminal elements dont you understand?

j

[Minimalist]

You make a lot of assumptions based on the fact that a rock starts in one place and ends up in another.

[john]

You make a lot of assumptions based on the fact that a rock starts in one place and ends up in another.

if you lend your next door neighbor a cup of salt, it is a single transaction. if you mine, then transport salt over thousands of miles, there are multiple, multiple transactions. and everyone along the way is looking to make a buck, by fair means or foul.

puts a lot of variation into the equasion.

thus the hallstatt culture and or, extended simile the hanseatic league.

taxation, in my opinion, was first created as a toll fee on the transportation of goods or materials by the people who controlled the land and/or waterways through which said goods or materials were beding transported.

in other words, i've got this caravan transporting salt through my territory. i need salt. therefore, i wont allow the caravan to pass until they give me 100 pounds of salt from their load.

just for argument's sake.

j

[Minimalist]

John, I don't particularly disagree with your premise that international trade is a complex business, nor even with the idea that aggressive traders have frequently preceded governments into new areas forcing the government to play catch-up. The concept was not unknown even in our own country as individuals headed west long before the government got on board with the idea.

But historians tell us that 6,000 years ago there was a noticeable shortage of advanced civilizations.

Archaeology has now established that civilization appeared earlier in southern Mesopotamia than anywhere else. Urban conglomerations of populations, monumental architecture and writing were all in existence by 3500 BC, whereas they did not appear in Egypt for several centuries after this. In the Valley even the Pre-Harappan or Early Harappan phase, with its small fortified towns, these did not begin till shortly before 3000 BC and writing is not known before the mature Harappan phase which cannot be dated before 2500 BC.

http://www.appiusforum.com/civilizations.html

However, it seems even more unlikely that individual traders would have set out on long journeys without knowledge of what awaited them on the other end.

Thus, the answer may well be that the beginnings of civilization must be pushed back even farther because Stan's questions about the medium of exchange and taxation, etc are also valid.

[stan]

Thanks everyone, for your interesting responses to my questions.

I realize that I have been attempting to jump to some conclusions withouth sufficient information. The lapis came from Afghanistan...Which civilization did that belong to?

But
The fact that there were only a few big civilizations (empires) at that time
is part of the fascination of the issue of trade...even if lapis is not the best example.
They were thousands of miles apart, but did they trade with each other?
Makes me wonder if the diplomats, & scholars of Egypt trveled
to Indus valley to see what was was going on over there, to talk to their wise men and powerful leaders. Since there were only a few written languages, and only a few could read them, I would think that the literati in one culture would be fascinated by the other culture.
Did the Egyptians invite the Harrappans to come look at the pyramids?
What did the Egyptians exchange for the lapis or whatever they imported.

[Minimalist]

I seem to recall that the first use of coins was attributed to Lydia c 700 BC so it looks as if we are dealing with a barter system.