A Bone Flute...in Central Texas?

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:22 pm

That's a neat possibility there Charlie. There is good evidence that Neandertal man made bone flutes.

I remember the pictures of the site where you work. The erosion looked fairly extensive. I take it that the whole bank is being eroded pretty quickly?

oldarchystudent · Post by **oldarchystudent** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:33 am

Minimalist wrote:
oldarchystudent wrote:
marduk wrote:now that youve removed it from its location without deferring to correct excavation procedures whatever its made from it is now worthless
well done Charlie
What???

Is he digging privately without recording context?

Charlie, I don't know you, but if you are doing this and you care about archaeology, you have to stop. It destroys the archaeological record.

Charlie is the archaeological record on that site, OAS.

OK I may be going further down a bad path here, but this worries me. Charlie, are you with a university or an amateur archaeological society somewhere or are you working on your own? How do you record a site? Where do you publish?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:30 am

That point looks clovis-ish to me....isn't it fluted?
Very nice pieces you found. Charlie.

I ain't sure about that "flute." And is it bone?
I didn' t think there were perfectly cylindrical bones.
Could it be bamboo? Maybe a dumb question in the context of where you found it.

Morning Stan.

It look's Clovis-like to me. If we have any N.A. lithics experts hanging around, much input is appreciated.

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... s%2014.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... s%2013.jpg

I agree with you about the hypothsized flute: I thought it was wood when I first found it, because it's very cylindrical. But the more I've studied it, it appears to be bone, with both the "proximal and "distal" ends rounded and modified.

Here's a couple of bones found in the same vicinity, that appear cylindrical:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone80.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone47.jpg

No se, amigo...I'm definitely ignorant when it comes to bones.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:43 am

That's a neat possibility there Charlie. There is good evidence that Neandertal man made bone flutes.

I remember the pictures of the site where you work. The erosion looked fairly extensive. I take it that the whole bank is being eroded pretty quickly?

Morning Beags.

What we're working with is a dissected alluvium:

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site10.jpg

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site11.jpg

Here's a few hypothesized neanderthal "flutes":

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:43 am

Truely an amazing site there Charlie. Sounds like you need some "serious" help and backing from the State or Texas A&M. That erosion is a SERIOUS PROBLEM. But without Mother Nature's help you may never have found the site due to it's depths.
What culturally is coming out of the silt and clay strata? Any lensing or midden strata to indicate more recent occupation? Any Archaic artifacts in any lensing here?
Does it appears that most of your Archaic and "probable Paleo" artifacts are coming out ot the Alluvial Gravel Strata. If so this gives me the impression that these artifacts where deposit on an early creek bed, or some site got washed into the creek and into its alluvial deposit many, many years back.
And the smelting ovens, they are found in the Edward Formation Limestone? Any definite indication that these are associated with the Archaic/Paleo artifacts? Could these be of a more modern, historic context? I do realize that your showing lithic material that has iron or pyrite staining on them. Any indication that your lithic material is showing
heat shattering?
One thing for sure, you need to establish a stratigraphic column and a datum. If your seeing these artifacts coming out of the eroding river bank you still can document the level and stratigraphic position with photo and gps reading. That will document them for future reference.
What about dropping a nice size unit back off the existing creek to establish some stratigraphy? Or maybe clearing a creek bank for nice profile to show the strata where this material is coming out of. Archaeoligist like to look at such dirty pictures.
Any local Amateur Archaeological Societies in your area that could help you?
Just another enquiring mind here!
CHEERS!

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:25 am

Truely an amazing site there Charlie. Sounds like you need some "serious" help and backing from the State or Texas A&M. That erosion is a SERIOUS PROBLEM. But without Mother Nature's help you may never have found the site due to it's depths.
What culturally is coming out of the silt and clay strata? Any lensing or midden strata to indicate more recent occupation? Any Archaic artifacts in any lensing here?
Does it appears that most of your Archaic and "probable Paleo" artifacts are coming out ot the Alluvial Gravel Strata. If so this gives me the impression that these artifacts where deposit on an early creek bed, or some site got washed into the creek and into its alluvial deposit many, many years back.
And the smelting ovens, they are found in the Edward Formation Limestone? Any definite indication that these are associated with the Archaic/Paleo artifacts? Could these be of a more modern, historic context? I do realize that your showing lithic material that has iron or pyrite staining on them. Any indication that your lithic material is showing
heat shattering?
One thing for sure, you need to establish a stratigraphic column and a datum. If your seeing these artifacts coming out of the eroding river bank you still can document the level and stratigraphic position with photo and gps reading. That will document them for future reference.
What about dropping a nice size unit back off the existing creek to establish some stratigraphy? Or maybe clearing a creek bank for nice profile to show the strata where this material is coming out of. Archaeoligist like to look at such dirty pictures.
Any local Amateur Archaeological Societies in your area that could help you?
Just another enquiring mind here!
CHEERS! Wink

I'm in need of professional help, in the worst sort of way. I'm in salvage mode. My goal is to attract a university team in the area to come excavate the site professionally..I'm not qualified. I've been working on attracting a team going on 16 months. U.T. and A&M are, understandably, completely tied up with The Gault Site, 25 miles Northwest of here. 4 geologists have taken interest in the site, and been very helpful in interpreting the site, performing dating, and confirming the furnaces are actually furnaces.

Here's a link to my preliminary report, which is still very rough, but will give you a better idea of what's going here:

http://www.online-archaeology.co.uk/tab ... fault.aspx

oldarchystudent · Post by **oldarchystudent** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:53 am

Charlie Hatchett wrote:[
I'm in need of professional help, in the worst sort of way. I'm in salvage mode. My goal is to attract a university team in the area to come excavate the site professionally..I'm not qualified. I've been working on attracting a team going on 16 months. U.T. and A&M are, understandably, completely tied up with The Gault Site, 25 miles Northwest of here. 4 geologists have taken interest in the site, and been very helpful in interpreting the site, performing dating, and confirming the furnaces are actually furnaces.

Here's a link to my preliminary report, which is still very rough, but will give you a better idea of what's going here:

http://www.online-archaeology.co.uk/tab ... fault.aspx

Bravo! I'm glad you are taking these steps. Please accept my apologies for mistakely assuming you needed to be pushed in this direction. I'll be watching with interest.

Jim

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:17 am

Charlie, it's hard to get a sense of the size of that stream bank from the photo, but, if it isn't too large couldn't you cover it with some sort of tarp or netting when you are not working there?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:58 am

Bravo! I'm glad you are taking these steps. Please accept my apologies for mistakely assuming you needed to be pushed in this direction. I'll be watching with interest.

Jim

Hi Jim.

For some reason I had you on ignore, but, to tell you the truth, I really don't remember ever chatting with you at all. Min. assured me I should take you off ignore. I'm sorry if you took that as rude, but their are a couple of people on here that have been just downright mean...and life's too short. Please accept my apologies. Again, I really can't recall chatting with you befoe.

Jim, I can't tell you how bad I want to get a team out here. It breaks my heart everytime we get a big rain...I know 10's and perhaps 100's of artifacts are lost for good each time a chunk of the alluvium is eroded. Basically I just come in after the rains, and pick up what's left...which is still quite a bit. I do my best to document the location where each was found, and try to carry as much out of the valley, and up to my house.
There's alot of sites around here being exposed, due to rapid development, and not enough money and teams to cover them all.
I'd appreciate if you, and anyone else happening to read this post, would pass the word around to any pro friends you may have.

Cheers!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:20 pm

Hi Charlie

Firstly - don't be such a stranger! I know you're busy and I often drop over to your regular site to see your new posts. Hope you get some help saving that site.

Charlie, Oas doesn't know you and the work you've been doing. He is a good guy - and studying in the field to boot. I'm glad Min. let you know.

You have no idea how jealous I am of your ignore function.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:45 pm

BTW Charlie, say hi to D. Campbell for me, I am a member but just lurk mostly because I just don't know enough on the subject to make a contribution.

I see that VSM agrees with you on the hypothetical bone flute. That's pretty neat right there. Take good care of that potential artifact - who knows?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:02 pm

Charlie, it's hard to get a sense of the size of that stream bank from the photo, but, if it isn't too large couldn't you cover it with some sort of tarp or netting when you are not working there?

Min, the site consists of 7 subunits, where the alluvium has been dissected recently:

Lima is the primary site, where the furnace, mold, flute, Clovis-like point, etc...were discovered:

The red highlight traces the whole alluvium, which much is still capped and secure. This is where I recommend a formal excavation occur.

As to covering the exposed portion with a tarp or netting, I think the following images will answer that question for you:

I don't think a tarp or netting would make much difference bro...when it rains, the creek rages, taking down large, 100 foot trees, etc...

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:04 pm

Damn.....one always thinks of Texas as dry.

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:00 pm

Damn.....one always thinks of Texas as dry.

For the most part, it is. But when it rains, boy does it rain!!!

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:05 pm

BTW Charlie, say hi to D. Campbell for me, I am a member but just lurk mostly because I just don't know enough on the subject to make a contribution.

I see that VSM agrees with you on the hypothetical bone flute. That's pretty neat right there. Take good care of that potential artifact - who knows?

I'll definitely tell David hi for you. I just saw that on VSM's site. I've responded to her. Hey, when your dealing with strange stuff like this, there's no right or wrong. Many heads are better than one...for brainstorming. Feel free to make any comments you want over there. Everybody over there thinks your a nice guy.

Now get back to your vacation...you nut. Ha, that's the pot calling the kettle black!!