A Bone Flute...in Central Texas?

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oldarchystudent
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Post by oldarchystudent »

Charlie Hatchett wrote:
Bravo! I'm glad you are taking these steps. Please accept my apologies for mistakely assuming you needed to be pushed in this direction. I'll be watching with interest.

Jim
Hi Jim.

For some reason I had you on ignore, but, to tell you the truth, I really don't remember ever chatting with you at all. Min. assured me I should take you off ignore. I'm sorry if you took that as rude, but their are a couple of people on here that have been just downright mean...and life's too short. Please accept my apologies. Again, I really can't recall chatting with you befoe.

Jim, I can't tell you how bad I want to get a team out here. It breaks my heart everytime we get a big rain...I know 10's and perhaps 100's of artifacts are lost for good each time a chunk of the alluvium is eroded. Basically I just come in after the rains, and pick up what's left...which is still quite a bit. I do my best to document the location where each was found, and try to carry as much out of the valley, and up to my house.
There's alot of sites around here being exposed, due to rapid development, and not enough money and teams to cover them all.
I'd appreciate if you, and anyone else happening to read this post, would pass the word around to any pro friends you may have.

Cheers! :D
If you are just picking up artifacts washed out by rain then context is a bit meaningless. Too bad because I'd like to see this excavated, and soon.

No apologies requiredon your part, I was the one busting you up about site methods. I'm glad to see we both want the same thing.

Cheers

Jim
My karma ran over my dogma.
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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

If you are just picking up artifacts washed out by rain then context is a bit meaningless. Too bad because I'd like to see this excavated, and soon.

No apologies requiredon your part, I was the one busting you up about site methods. I'm glad to see we both want the same thing.

Cheers

Jim
Yeah, definitely no digging going on...only salvage. If you could pass this info around to any pro types you may know, I would certainly appreciate it. Perhaps we could even get someone from out of state to come formally excavate the site. Doesn't matter to me, as long as we have a team doing the dig that is considered compentent amoung the general community.

Cheers!
Charlie Hatchett

PreClovis Artifacts from Central Texas
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

What is it that you think you have there? Do you have a working hypothesis on it? You know me. I don't require absolute 'proof' but you must have some thoughts about the nature of the location?
The geologists studying the site are guessing the artifacts unraveling out the alluvial gravels might be from the Sangamonian Interglacial. Here's one of the geologist's take:
...Charlie found one in situ stemmed projectile point in the gravel cap underlying (older than) fine-grained sediments in which Clovis points have been found by others and dated by them at ca. 12,000 years. Said tool (stemmed 20) has remnants of a carbonate coat covering the flake scars. (flake scars = tool shaping = older than carbonate coat = older than gravel cap = older than Clovis = older than 12,000 years). Other stemmed tools from nearby float (out of context) also have remnants of carbonate coats covering flake scars, as do many other float specimens showing various flaking technologies. He finds other artifacts in the overlying fine-grained sediments, the ones that have produced Clovis points at a nearby site, but none of them have remnants of a carbonate coat. We can assume they are younger than the carbonate coat episode.

But carbonate coats don't start out as relatively thick spots on flake scars; they start out as thin films covering the whole piece and thicken slowly over time. And nature doesn't treat an artifact as an artifact; she treats it as a piece of gravel. So we can further assume that, after these pieces were made, they rested a long time in the place they were dropped, and that the climate at that time was hot and dry, with intermittent moisture (for the carbonate to be moved in solution and later deposited on the tools. Sangamonian Interglacial?) Then the climate got a lot wetter (Wisconsin time?) This in order to erode the sediments containing the tools, concentrate them, and move them along in a relatively high energy environment to their current position in the gravel cap, knocking off most of their carbonate coats in the process.

So, these tools Charlie is finding will have to be older than the gravel cap out of which they are now eroding. And they can be of various ages. Two especially, if those chip marks aren't natural, have had flake scars modified by water transport, i.e. dulled edges, before the carbonate coat was added (paleo 20, photo 2010a; preclovis 2019). Others may have been recycled at a later date (preclovis 20190, preclovis 20206)...

Makes me wonder more about the flute, and it's possible connection to the Mousterian Tradition. The supposed "last stand" of the Neanderthals was at Gibraltar...then they mysteriously disappear.

Now, if these guys could make fine art, bone flutes, etc...is it too much of a leap to say they could have built simple boats?

Image

Image

Image


With a simple sail or, perhaps, paddling, they could have made the trip, chasing marine life, in ca. 6-10 days. The Canary Current and prevailing, steady, quite strong Easterly winds would have made the trip much easier and faster.

That's one hypothesis I'm working on...

Current local radar:

Image

Another busy day of salvage tomorrow...bitter-sweet... :?
Charlie Hatchett

PreClovis Artifacts from Central Texas
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Post by Minimalist »

The Sangamonian Interglacial?
The Wisconsian stage is the glacial period that follows the Sangamonian interglacial period and precedes the Holocene period. It started about 80,000 years before the present (BP) ( Ehlers, 1996).

One would think that these stones (tools) would be of interest...at least more interest than they are apparently gathering.


Clovis First apparently has their own Club, Charlie!
Last edited by Minimalist on Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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oldarchystudent
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Post by oldarchystudent »

Charlie Hatchett wrote:
If you are just picking up artifacts washed out by rain then context is a bit meaningless. Too bad because I'd like to see this excavated, and soon.

No apologies requiredon your part, I was the one busting you up about site methods. I'm glad to see we both want the same thing.

Cheers

Jim
Yeah, definitely no digging going on...only salvage. If you could pass this info around to any pro types you may know, I would certainly appreciate it. Perhaps we could even get someone from out of state to come formally excavate the site. Doesn't matter to me, as long as we have a team doing the dig that is considered compentent amoung the general community.

Cheers!
Right now my prof from last year is planning on going back to Bermuda this year for another dig. Next time I talk to him about that I'll tell him about this. I don't see much of him right now as he is on sabbatical. I'd look into the Archaeology Societies around your area. I dug with a group like that near Lake Placid Florida and they were great folks. I'm sure the right group would jump on the chance to dig at a place like this, but be sure they have a qualified site manager available as an advisor.

Good luck!

Jim

EDIT - Sorry - just reading back through all the posts. About the boats - I would doubt that, as I doubt the Solutrean theory. Mt DNA in present day aboriginal populations can all be accounted for by the Beringian migration, but I agree with you that it started much earlier than the 13,000 BP timeframe.

Jim
My karma ran over my dogma.
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oldarchystudent
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Post by oldarchystudent »

I'm not sure it's a flute.

There are 6 large holes on the "upper" side. You have to use two hands so thumbs on the bottom, first through ring fingers on the top. Reasonable so far?

Take a look at the two small holes on the reverse. You could cover one of them with a thumb, like you do with a recorder, but the other? Also, compare the relative size of the large holes with the samples in Min's post. Much larger and harder to control the air leakage. I'm not so sure it's a flute.

But then what is it? The two small holes look like they could have sinew passed through them and knotted to hang it? But what are the 6 large holes for?

Some artifacts are practice pieces, a father teaching a son how to bore holes, in this case using what looks like a deer leg for practice.

This is why I love archaeology!

Jim
My karma ran over my dogma.
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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

Quickie before I turn in for the evening. Check out this Mayan flute made out of deer bone:

Image

Image

Catch you guys in the morning...I'll reply more thoroughly.
Charlie Hatchett

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Post by Minimalist »

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/sdc/ww ... order.html



Image


Recorder (ri kôr'der)
An early form of flute, with eight finger holes and a fipple.
[/quote]
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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oldarchystudent
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Post by oldarchystudent »

Slightly OT but the Andean legend says that the first one of these flutes was made from the femur of a dead woman by her grieving husband, so that he would always be able to make music with her. I always thought it was a lovely story.

... if a little macabre when you think about the manufacturing process.....
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Charlie Hatchett
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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

I'm not sure it's a flute.

There are 6 large holes on the "upper" side. You have to use two hands so thumbs on the bottom, first through ring fingers on the top. Reasonable so far?

Take a look at the two small holes on the reverse. You could cover one of them with a thumb, like you do with a recorder, but the other? Also, compare the relative size of the large holes with the samples in Min's post. Much larger and harder to control the air leakage. I'm not so sure it's a flute.

But then what is it? The two small holes look like they could have sinew passed through them and knotted to hang it? But what are the 6 large holes for?

Some artifacts are practice pieces, a father teaching a son how to bore holes, in this case using what looks like a deer leg for practice.

This is why I love archaeology!

Jim
Right!! Nothing like a good puzzle...:? :D

Seem's the number and size of the drilled holes varied from culture to culture or from location to location:

Local-6 large holes on top, 3 small holes on the side and bottom- 9 total

Image

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone129.jpg

Image

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone130.jpg


Neanderthal-6 large holes on top are hypothesized by some:

Image

Image

Image

Mayan- 5 large holes on top, not sure about the side and bottom:

Image

China-7 small holes on top, not sure about the side and bottom:

Image

Wales- 1 possible large hole, and two small holes on top:

Image


...Using three-dimensional images derived from digitized photographs of fossil hand remains, Wesley Niewoehner from the University of New Mexico found the early hominids differed from the Neanderthals in terms of grip strength and ability to resist forces in certain grip positions...Dr Neiwoehner found that the hands of the early hominids were better adapted to tools set in handles which required finer finger movements, while Neanderthal hands were well-suited to objects held in the palm using the thumb as a brace...

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s242789.htm
Neanderthal Hand:

Image

Hss Hand

Image

Onward through the fog. 8)
Charlie Hatchett

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Post by Charlie Hatchett »

One would think that these stones (tools) would be of interest...at least more interest than they are apparently gathering.


Clovis First apparently has their own Club, Charlie!
"Theory tells us these stones are not possible, therefore the stones are geofacts..."

:?

Is this science, or is it observation bowing to theory?

P.S.- Jim, this is not directed at you. It's just typical of some of the responses I've received from pros.
Charlie Hatchett

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Post by Minimalist »

"Theory tells us these stones are not possible, therefore the stones are geofacts..."



Precisely......it's the dogma that matters not the evidence.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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oldarchystudent
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Post by oldarchystudent »

Minimalist wrote:
"Theory tells us these stones are not possible, therefore the stones are geofacts..."



Precisely......it's the dogma that matters not the evidence.
Not necessarily, What it DOES mean is that if you want to present a theory, especially one that could re-write history, you'd better have good evidence and be prepared to defend it, just like a PhD Thesis. Otherwise you'll get people believing the last ice age ended just 3,000 years ago (sound familiar?????)
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Post by Minimalist »

But what happens when people refuse to accept evidence merely because it contradicts their theory? That is the problem with The Club - or religion which is the same thing only worse.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Post by oldarchystudent »

If you are going to disagree with a published report, you write a reply to it in the same peer-reviewed journal. For as much as you have to have a good and well supported case if you are going to change the way we look at history, you also have to have a good refutation if you are going to shoot it down. These scholarly duels can go on for years, but they have to use evidence.

I have read some of the back and forth over pre-clovis when I was researching last year's paper. Sometimes the challenges were on minutae, but generally legitimate none the less. That's not to say there isn't a resistance to change, but I found the resistance to be based in reasonable argument, not a closed-shop mentality. The only thing is that you have to be qualified to speak on the subject, which makes sense.

Cheers

Jim
My karma ran over my dogma.
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