Horse poop

[Starflower]

proof that Kazakhstani's were the first to domesticate the horse?

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2006/10/2 ... 1020161530

New evidence from soil inside the remains of a 5,600-year-old corral indicates that the ancient Botai people of Kazakhstan were among the earliest to domesticate horses. But equine romantics might be disappointed to learn that the Botai probably ate and milked their horses as often as they rode them.

I knew it had to be good for something besides fertilizer.

That evidence comes from circular arrangements of posts and the soil differences found inside and outside the corral. Inside the corral, the soil contained up to ten times the phosphorus as outside soils, but lower concentrations of nitrogen. That's what you'd expect if the soil there was enriched with horse manure.

Modern horse manure, for comparison, is loaded with phosphorous, potassium and nitrogen. The nitrogen is the easiest to lose to groundwater or the air.
Phosphorus, on the other hand, can be held in place by calcium and iron, says Capo, a geologist who did the soil analyses with Michael Rosenmeier and undergraduates Andy Stiff and James Gardiner of the University of Pittsburgh.
"High phosphorous could also indicate human occupation," said Capo, "but that's usually accompanied by other geochemical signatures, which we didn't find in the corral samples."
There was also high sodium concentration in the corral samples, which could be from urine, suggested Olsen.

Interesting way to 'prove' a theory.

[marduk]

equally though the Corrals could have contained cows, goats, pigs or sheep

[Starflower]

Since we are discussing domestication here This also in our news:
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/ne ... 822505.htm

"The ancient Egyptian burial shows how highly valued (donkeys) were for the world's first nation state. After the horse came, they became lower status. Of course, they're the butt of jokes and all the rest of it. That has to do with the name mostly."
Hee haw. Marshall wants to know how the donkey was domesticated from the Somali wild ass. By traveling around the world, searching for bones in London museums and African deserts, she hopes to pinpoint the time and place of this event, which Marshall says was as revolutionary as the invention of the steam engine.
She also hopes to understand why the ass was domesticated and not, say, the zebra.

The estimated date and place for animal domestication changes as archaeologists find new evidence.

Animal_When_Where

Dog_13,000 B.C._Asia, Europe

Pig_10,000 B.C._Near East

Sheep, Goat_9,000 B.C._Near East, South Asia

Cattle_8,000 B.C._Near East

Cat_7,000 B.C._Europe

Donkey_4,000 B.C._Africa

Horse_3,000 B.C._Central Asia

Marduk, stay tuned for updates on the horse manure controversy. From the original article posted:

The real smoking gun, said Olsen, will be if they can detect long-lived molecules of lipids, or fat, in these samples that can be attributed specifically to horses. That analysis is now being arranged.

I am not sure why they concluded there were horses in the pens, but from reading further, I believe they found horse bones in the middens.

[marduk]

Horse_3,000 B.C._Central Asia

I would disagree with that
the Sumerians had horses before that time
its in the linguistics
they had an established name for horse by 2500bce at the very latest
so how does a newly domesticated animal get to Sumer so quick
(I know someones going to say something funny at this point)

I believe they found horse bones in the middens

and they didn't find pig, goat, or sheep bones.
do you think these people up til that point were vegetarians and then when they domesticated a horse all of a sudden they thought
"mmm I bet that tastes good"
when you are looking for something specific to prove a theory based on speculation you normally find it
I'd wait for the analysis of the poop before I made a press release like this wouldn't you
whats the political motivation behind this story ?

[Starflower]

whats the political motivation behind this story ?

Maybe Kazakhstan wants to be first at something? Or maybe the 'scientists' didn't want to wait on the next conference:

Olsen leads a team that has been investigating horse domestication for several years. One of her colleagues, Rosemary Capo, will present a poster with some of chemical soil evidence for horses on Oct. 23 at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America in Philadelphia.

(from the original link)

At least somebody is reading my shit

[marduk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2129182.stm

However, some experts believe horses were domesticated much earlier, on the Eurasian Steppes in the Near East between 4,500 and 2,500 BC.

this is also well worth reading
http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/c ... 132&ss=exc

[stan]

In England, neolithic structures have been shown to be cattle paths or cattle pens on account of concentrations of chemicals in the soil.

Ref: book "Seahenge." which I read last year.

[Starflower]

information is available in this article:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 102306.php

Early as the Botai were, they were probably not the first to domesticate horses, says Olsen. "The very first horse domestication was probably a bit earlier in Ukraine or western Russia," she said.

So they weren't actually claiming 'firsties' for the Kasakhstani.

the Sumerians had horses before that time
its in the linguistics
they had an established name for horse by 2500bce at the very latest

By the by, I have an established word for tiger but I've never tried to domesticate one, or ride one either. (At least not literally)

[marduk]

Kazakhstan is now publicising its recent finds and has sent a special envoy to the U.S.A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-qO8Oyw ... l=%2Findex

[Starflower]

ROTFLMAO. I need a copy of that movie.