Here's an article about the oldest statue of a "human" yet found.
It's from 2003. It alludes to several themes we have talked about
on this forum: migration, neandertal vs. homo, etc.
oldest statue
Moderators: MichelleH, Minimalist, JPeters
oldest statue
http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0401/WD01-8500.html
Here's an article about the oldest statue of a "human" yet found.
It's from 2003. It alludes to several themes we have talked about
on this forum: migration, neandertal vs. homo, etc.
Here's an article about the oldest statue of a "human" yet found.
It's from 2003. It alludes to several themes we have talked about
on this forum: migration, neandertal vs. homo, etc.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
well thanx. 30,000 BP does kinda beg the question of HNS creation. I just came across a copy of Aug 99 Discover, p 72, which shows a necklace found at Arcy-sur-Cure France 35,000 BP in clearly HNS strata. which blows large holes in the assumption that Neanderthals could not create art.
Then too, come to think of it, there's the Shanidar Iraq HNS skeleton found buried with flowers and seven important medicinal herbs. If you bury a body with flowers, aint that art?
however, I will admit, that many times in history, when we see two cultures come in contact, it is the cross fertilization that results in dramatically new art. but you cant give Cro-Magnon all the credit any more.
And while we are at it, if Native Europeans are a HNS/HSS hybrid, Orientals have some Hidelburgensis genes; they were, after all, in contact for a much longer period, as was proved by the recent discovery of the "hobbits".
Remember the flap over "Sperm Wars"? If different lines of the Y chromosome do indeed have different speed and motility, then it would seem inevitable that two sperm from different lines would be present during conception and result in a hybrid even if normal one sperm/one egg conception would not be viable.
Or, as Discovery, p 74 of "Learning to Love Neaderthals" says in reference to the Lapedo Valley hybrid child:"In fact I expect it," says Hublin. A few hybrids wouldnt even disprove the view that Neanderthals were a different species. Animals of closely related species can sometimes interbreed, and sometimes the offspring are even fertile."
I think the opposition to the idea of hybridization comes of the racism that was so common when HNS was first discovered. The academics who came out against it at that time were unware of the out-of-Africa theory, But once it became part of the conventional lack of wisdom, and entrenched by the academic department chairs, there was no way to present the idea without unwarrented dismissability.
Then too, come to think of it, there's the Shanidar Iraq HNS skeleton found buried with flowers and seven important medicinal herbs. If you bury a body with flowers, aint that art?
however, I will admit, that many times in history, when we see two cultures come in contact, it is the cross fertilization that results in dramatically new art. but you cant give Cro-Magnon all the credit any more.
And while we are at it, if Native Europeans are a HNS/HSS hybrid, Orientals have some Hidelburgensis genes; they were, after all, in contact for a much longer period, as was proved by the recent discovery of the "hobbits".
Remember the flap over "Sperm Wars"? If different lines of the Y chromosome do indeed have different speed and motility, then it would seem inevitable that two sperm from different lines would be present during conception and result in a hybrid even if normal one sperm/one egg conception would not be viable.
Or, as Discovery, p 74 of "Learning to Love Neaderthals" says in reference to the Lapedo Valley hybrid child:"In fact I expect it," says Hublin. A few hybrids wouldnt even disprove the view that Neanderthals were a different species. Animals of closely related species can sometimes interbreed, and sometimes the offspring are even fertile."
I think the opposition to the idea of hybridization comes of the racism that was so common when HNS was first discovered. The academics who came out against it at that time were unware of the out-of-Africa theory, But once it became part of the conventional lack of wisdom, and entrenched by the academic department chairs, there was no way to present the idea without unwarrented dismissability.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
-
Guest
Thanx for the encouragement Realist. But we cant prove the scientists wrong, becuase they are the ones who get to decide what "proof" is.
The department chairs are the ones who said Schleiman was a crackpot and Troy never existed. They also said that Atlantis never existed, and wont take back a word of it even tho data supporting Thera convinces everyone else who looks into it who dont already have a dog in that fight.
One of my favorites, "Akhnaton & Oedipus" was written by Velikovsky of all people, making a very good case that the play was based on events in the life of Akhnaton... who also married his mom and had kids by her. Velikovsky points out that "oedipus" in Greek means "fat legs", and if you look at Akhnaton, that's what he had, a pear shaped figure with fat thighs.
There's lots of books and postings trying to debunk Ryan & Pitman's "Noah's Flood", but in every case that I can tell, the author is pandering to fundamentalist Christians. There are *no* debunking attempts at all from Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, or other non-Christian academic communities. I know this because I've asked at usenet if any exist, and the silence speaks loudly.
I've seen lots of controversy about Tocharian and Proto-Indo-European too. A recent search for books amazed me at the prices; some well over 200$, on up to even 800$ for a volume of no more than a few hundred pages. I'm appalled at the evident greed, but perhaps encouraged that if they think they can sell at these prices, there's lots more customers than I'd imagined.
But prices this high discourage scholarship by independent researchers. i dunno what to make of it other than it reeks of academic elitism.
The department chairs are the ones who said Schleiman was a crackpot and Troy never existed. They also said that Atlantis never existed, and wont take back a word of it even tho data supporting Thera convinces everyone else who looks into it who dont already have a dog in that fight.
One of my favorites, "Akhnaton & Oedipus" was written by Velikovsky of all people, making a very good case that the play was based on events in the life of Akhnaton... who also married his mom and had kids by her. Velikovsky points out that "oedipus" in Greek means "fat legs", and if you look at Akhnaton, that's what he had, a pear shaped figure with fat thighs.
There's lots of books and postings trying to debunk Ryan & Pitman's "Noah's Flood", but in every case that I can tell, the author is pandering to fundamentalist Christians. There are *no* debunking attempts at all from Chinese, Japanese, Hindu, or other non-Christian academic communities. I know this because I've asked at usenet if any exist, and the silence speaks loudly.
I've seen lots of controversy about Tocharian and Proto-Indo-European too. A recent search for books amazed me at the prices; some well over 200$, on up to even 800$ for a volume of no more than a few hundred pages. I'm appalled at the evident greed, but perhaps encouraged that if they think they can sell at these prices, there's lots more customers than I'd imagined.
But prices this high discourage scholarship by independent researchers. i dunno what to make of it other than it reeks of academic elitism.
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16018
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
but in every case that I can tell, the author is pandering to fundamentalist Christians.
Uh-oh.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Well, I've asked before. Maybe you can find me a debunker who is Japanese, Chinese, or from some other *non*-christian culture with a non-christian academic institution. Even the Turks have lots of religious fundamentalism to consider in any public position.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
When I was in school, "peer review" had it that plate tectonics was a crackpot theory. That being said, scholars from Gibbon to "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman have shown that "scripture" is plagiarized and pasted together. Gibbon making perfectly clear the political motivations behind it.
But after all, "faith" is about believing. St. Paul makes it perfectly clear that reason is not an adequate tool to find the truth, apparently believing that all men are as irrational as he is. And of course, those who are as irrational, find what St. Paul has to say make perfect sense. So- my comments are not expected to do the faithful any good.
But let the rest of us, who try to rely on reason, admit that the facts we have to go on are not really adequate, and that to some extent, we are always guessing, and therefore retain some doubt about the peer review process.
Tonite, I stumbled across several hits on "Atlantis in the Black Sea", and find much of their premise lacking. Nonetheless, they provide some data that you can use to construct a more detailed reasonable explanation of why we find the Great Flood and the Alantis myths where we do, and in the prehistory the myth says they existed in.
They seem to be saying that artifacts have been recovered from the bottom of the Black sea that date to the mid 6th mil, but I've not seen the links to the actual facts regarding who found what where or why they were looking.
There is always the point where the amount of data becomes compelling enough to cause a tectontic shift in the conventional lack of wisdom.
But after all, "faith" is about believing. St. Paul makes it perfectly clear that reason is not an adequate tool to find the truth, apparently believing that all men are as irrational as he is. And of course, those who are as irrational, find what St. Paul has to say make perfect sense. So- my comments are not expected to do the faithful any good.
But let the rest of us, who try to rely on reason, admit that the facts we have to go on are not really adequate, and that to some extent, we are always guessing, and therefore retain some doubt about the peer review process.
Tonite, I stumbled across several hits on "Atlantis in the Black Sea", and find much of their premise lacking. Nonetheless, they provide some data that you can use to construct a more detailed reasonable explanation of why we find the Great Flood and the Alantis myths where we do, and in the prehistory the myth says they existed in.
They seem to be saying that artifacts have been recovered from the bottom of the Black sea that date to the mid 6th mil, but I've not seen the links to the actual facts regarding who found what where or why they were looking.
There is always the point where the amount of data becomes compelling enough to cause a tectontic shift in the conventional lack of wisdom.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
-
Minimalist
- Forum Moderator
- Posts: 16018
- Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
- Location: Arizona
That being said, scholars from Gibbon to "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman have shown that "scripture" is plagiarized and pasted together. Gibbon making perfectly clear the political motivations behind it.
Ehrman was just on The Daily Show. He's an odd duck. A fundamentalist who actually learned Greek and then realized that the bible was a load of shit.
Refreshing.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
-
Rokcet Scientist
You musta missed the last couple of years of news. Neanderthals faded out between 46,000 - 41,000 BP.daybrown wrote:well thanx. 30,000 BP does kinda beg the question of HNS creation. I just came across a copy of Aug 99 Discover, p 72, which shows a necklace found at Arcy-sur-Cure France 35,000 BP in clearly HNS strata. which blows large holes in the assumption that Neanderthals could not create art.[...]
So that necklace doesn't have anything to do with Neanderthals.