example of charcoal tool?

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:20 pm

...this is 1 example of the tool resembling charcoal pieces....almost a mirror image of the burnt ended flint tool......any ideas?....again i thought votive but this is only a guess.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214 ... emen-1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214 ... ement2.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214 ... endh-1.jpg

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:25 am

Hello Flint. I'm trying hard to get my head around these things (and thus for the moment I'm ignoring their being charcoal - it only confuses things further). The first and last image seem to have a small depression at one end. I'm stumbling around in the dark here but the first word that came to mind was "spoon".

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:31 am

Morning WA....thats exactly what i initially thought but didnt think it could be after not seeing a similar but spoon did spring to mind.....definately charcoal though....the flint piece as you can see has the burnt end...possible that it was a stirring implement for liquid mould of some kind?....cant think of any other reason why the tip alone would be burnt to this degree...temperature would suggest this theory which wouldnt have occured through cooking food?

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:01 am

flintoff wrote:the flint piece as you can see has the burnt end...possible that it was a stirring implement for liquid mould of some kind?....cant think of any other reason why the tip alone would be burnt to this degree...temperature would suggest this theory which wouldnt have occured through cooking food?

Hmmmm. A dilly of a pickle as Ned Flanders would say. Theoretically then it could be something made in order to keep something held within a flame for some length of time - or something which was repeatedly dipped into a naked flame over the (presumably lengthy) course of its life. If not a stirring implement as you suggest (more stumbling around in the dark here) something like an incense burner, or at least its palaeo equivalent?
By the way, how tough are the charcoal objects? I realise I'm imagining something you could use in a life drawing class, but I guess to have survived they must have hardened up somewhat over the years?

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:20 am

...erm, the toughness of the charcoal pieces, obviously very lightweight, very hard to the touch & they are not releasing any Black matter when touched....like you get when you touch coal for instance if you know what i mean. Here are 2 more pieces iv found, 1 is a large heart shaped piece the other a strange oval kind of shape piece with 2 lines running all the way around the outside.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214 ... lpiece.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r214 ... lellin.jpg

War Arrow · Post by **War Arrow** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:43 am

Phew. Some of these pieces hurt my head just looking at them. There's obviously no way they can have been formed by chance, yet as to what they actually are or were used for? My guess would be symbolic objects of some sort of ritual significance, just like the bird heads seen elsewhere - that may be too much of an easy answer but what other explanation could there be?

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:01 am

...my sentiments exactly hence my original theory of being possible votive offerings....possibly Bronze age? but not having reference to any similars leaves me solely with just the objects & no explanation...but saying that i did find a knuckle joint a few yards from the same spot which was dated around -4000BCE which would put it in this era but no other bones or even fragments have been found yet so my original thought of shallow disturbed Bronze age burial is still distant...yet leaves me in the dark still regarding these charcoal pieces...i cant think or know of similars in the form of what i have that marry to any era or purpose...i suppose for now i would hazard a plausable guess at being votive if no other explanation can be reached or proved.

Post by **Minimalist** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:02 am

Instead of a "charcoal tool" (which, honestly, makes no sense to me at all) isn't it possible that what you have is a wooden tool which was subsequently burned and turned into charcoal?

Just asking.

stan · Post by **stan** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:58 pm

Flintoff, what makes you think the gray rock in the first two pictures is a tool? Any signs of working? Honestly, it just looks like a rock to me.
And I really don't undrstand why you call it a "charcoal" tool.
It looks hard and gray...is this some special kind of British carcoal?

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:11 am

Stan & Min...you seem to be neglecting to read my sentences thoroughly...i stated i have charcoal pieces resembling tools...i didn't say they were actual tools in any context as my own experience & knowledge is enouth for me to know charcoal was not a material used for tool making, or any working implement come to that, these pieces have never been found before, never been seen before & have never been duplicated before, i have no idea what they are, what their purpose was or what era they were made during....absolutely no clues what so ever....but they are charcoal, they are flint resembling & i have lots of them & i only find them on knapping rings on rich lithic area's where i hunt on a daily basis.

F

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:39 am

A-Charcoal can occur naturally. B-Humans have been making implements out of wood for a long time.

Therefore, if you have a piece of charcoal which "resembles" a tool it is either a natural phenomena which, if you have too many of them in one spot seems less and less likely or, someone's wooden tool kit caught fire long ago.

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:52 am

This is not the case Min, charcoal was made and shaped and used for sacrid & religious purposes, especially during the late Mesolithic era although my pieces do not fall into this catagory, or atleast i dont think they do due to no reference to any similar.

stan · Post by **stan** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:29 am

charcoal was made and shaped and used for sacrid & religious purposes,

Can you dig up a reference to this or a picture?
Maybe it's a linguistic problem....
what is "charcoal?"

Over here it is wood that is (1) burnt but not disintegrated
(2) mechanically compressed thngies like a drawing tool or(3) charcoal bricquets for cooking on an outdoor grill

We also have something called "coke" (partially burned coal) which is used to heat limestone to make quicklime.

flintoff · Post by **flintoff** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:01 am

Stan, said in a friendly context, with the WWW at your fingertips, its not a great task flicking through yourself to find info on such matters...charcoal is charcoal which ever country you come from...Min, wooden implements may have been founded around the early Palaeo period ( -1,5000,000 ) but wouldn't have been used around naked flames & expected to have lasted hence the 2 dont go together ...i have a long knife from this period dating around -1,000,000 to -1.5000,000BC made from stone so this transition would have been achieved well prior to any existing wooden (charcoal) implement being such as these.....all natural materials were used at some stage during evolution to form tools of some discription which is obviously how our ancestors decided that the more common materials like flint etc were better used for the job but they had to try everything out prior to finding the right 1...a concept still used today.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:09 am

but wouldn't have been used around naked flames & expected to have lasted hence the 2 dont go together ...

Perhaps not intentionally but fires have been known to break out and when they do they would not stop because their next piece of combustible material happens to be a tool.

I'm trying to help you out, here.
Accidents happen....even in antiquity