Deleted

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:59 pm

Not often, but rarely a hard dark residue?

More often, staining on cortex from being held in use, on one particular piece there is a build up of dirt forming a ridge in this manner.

I'll have to "dig" a few pieces out..

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:43 pm

I'll have to "dig" a few pieces out..

Yuk, Yuk...

Yeah, I'd love to see some of the residues. In these residues, I think the dating question may be answered...especially with a little Erectus DNA...

My guess is it would be M/ L3 Haploid like a mofo:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/mt ... -asia.html

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/conte ... 21/10/1843

The results of the clock tests, the network analyses, and the branch length comparisons all caution against the use of simple mtDNA clocks.

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:33 pm

Anybody know about this.

If mtDNA can only be passed on the maternal side, doesn't that mean that as soon as a mother either does not have a daughter or has one who does not re-produce another daughter the line dies out?

What am I missing here?

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:50 pm

Anybody know about this.

If mtDNA can only be passed on the maternal side, doesn't that mean that as soon as a mother either does not have a daughter or has one who does not re-produce another daughter the line dies out?

What am I missing here?

The only thing I can think of is the mothers, in the early generations, had multiple daughters, very successfully...

stan · Post by **stan** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:54 pm

Does the map of the mideast relate to the dna question?
Wow!

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:21 pm

Oh those Turks!

Charlie Hatchett · Post by **Charlie Hatchett** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:12 am

Does the map of the mideast relate to the dna question?
Wow!

I'm still trying to decipher the findings, but it appears Haplogroup M has Asian/ Middle East origins, versus African. Subsequently, the group migrated into eastern portions of Africa:

Haplogroup M is found mainly in Asia, and its various subclades make up the great majority of Mongoloid and Indian lineages. It is also found in the Near East, the Caucasus, Asia Minor and Southern Europe, in addition to Egypt, and Ethiopia. A particular clade of M, named M1 is the main one found in the "western" range of its range, and it was hypothesized that its high frequency and diversity in Ethiopia may indicate an East African origin for the entire M.

However, M1 is geographically limited in Africa, while it is very widespread in Asia. If M originated in Africa, then it must have done so at a very old time, because it would have to spread throughout Asia and the New World. However, it would be difficult to explain how M crossed such a vast distance and yet failed to reach other populations of Africa except Ethiopians, Egyptians and a few others.

The new study has dated the Indian clades of M and shown them to be very old. This clinches the argument in favor of the Asian origin.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/mt ... -asia.html

There's nothing outstanding about Turkey, except for the presence of M1. The map I posted just happened to have Turkey highlighted.

Here's the geographic range of Haplogroup M, as a whole, as far as I can tell:

Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /5806/1767

stan · Post by **stan** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:09 am

Excellent maps, Charlie.

Good work!

stan · Post by **stan** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:14 am

About these residues...
I think it is normal practice for archaeologists to wash the mud and dirt off stone artifacts. It seems this would also wash away other more interesting bits, such as feathers, hair, wood fibres, etc.
hmmmm....

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:22 am

Anybody know about this.

If mtDNA can only be passed on the maternal side, doesn't that mean that as soon as a mother either does not have a daughter or has one who does not re-produce another daughter the line dies out?

What am I missing here?

Min, the answer to your question with regard to a founder is yes. The "Seven Daughters of Eve" in Europe had enough female descendents that the lines did not die out on the maternal side. There were likely other founders who did die out during the first few generations for the reasons you mentioned (only boys survived or no daughters at all). Not a popular subject because it cannot be proved one way or the other.

My mtDNA is U5a. If I don't have daughters, my maternal line dies out. However, there are thousands of others in Europe with U5a who will carry on. BTW my yDNA is R1b1 ... the combination makes me Cro Magnon. You be staring at a 35-40,000 year old cave man. And with a cold today I feel like it.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:04 am

If I don't have daughters, my maternal line dies out.

Whoops Cogs - check again - you're a male. Your mothers mDNA will not pass through you.

Post by **Minimalist** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:17 am

Leave him alone, he has a cold!

Thanks, Cogs. I get your description of today. However, we are told that population was much lower in the Pleistocene. Assuming H/G groups of around 30 people one could assume that roughly half would be female. Even though the females did not risk hunting injury they did have to deal with child birth which probably kept the mortality rate about even.

It just seems that it would be too easy for mtDNA lines to die out. Oh, well...

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:24 pm

Whoops Cogs - check again - you're a male. Your mothers mDNA will not pass through you.

Brain fart!

I meant to say something different, but I'll let it stand as a brain fart.

Manystones · Post by **Manystones** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:31 pm

stan wrote:About these residues...
I think it is normal practice for archaeologists to wash the mud and dirt off stone artifacts. It seems this would also wash away other more interesting bits, such as feathers, hair, wood fibres, etc.
hmmmm....

Hello again Stan,

I am guided by this article in respect of recovering and preparation including when to wash and when not to. (i.e. not when there appears to be something "interesting").

http://archaeology.asu.edu/library/lab/chapter_four.pdf

Although I do hear what you are saying and I am asking myself what realistically could survive 500,000 years +. However even after washing I have found "residues" that don't want to come easily unstuck - possibly because they have bonded some over time. Reading the article Min pointed out though I was surprised and interested to learn that as techniques develop even some of the smaller traces of "stuff" can be analysed with a level of success. That said, I am not confident that anything of value could be recovered from my assemblage for certain, but who knows... like they say, if you don't try you don't know...

Cognito · Post by **Cognito** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:36 pm

However, we are told that population was much lower in the Pleistocene.

Min, decent estimates that I have seen place the world's population during the Pleistocene at:

70,000bce (after Toba eruption) About 40,000

10,000bce (Younger Dryas) About 4 million

Toba is the "bottleneck" that results in human populations being so homogenous. Most of the increase occurred between 60,000bce and 23,000bce when the Last Glacial Maximum resulted in either no growth or negative growth until 16,000bce. There is plenty of population during the first interim to carry on mtDNA bloodlines with few mutations over the period of time considered.

Archaeologica.org

Deleted

mtDNA

Cold

World Populations