Noah's Flood...

[Guest]

I've suggested books by reputable scholars, you decline to read them

No, I obviously missed that part. Refresh me.

You only want simple answers to complex problems

I'll settle for evidence, if you care to actually give me any. Could the problem be that you don't actually understand it yourself?

like you get out of your bible (and I call it yours because you apparently subscribe to its nonsense.)

There you go jumping to conclusions again. I've never said any such thing, and you apparently consider anyone who disagrees with you to be some kind of religious nutter-without proof.

Keep on believing that God created man out of dirt....instead of the obvious fact that man created god out of his own fears.

You said that, I didn't. See my previous comments. And Stephen Roberts is obviously an irrelevent non-entity, since you don't want to embarass yourself by answering my question.

[Guest]

In whichever way life developed, we have fossil traces of it that have been reliably dated at 3.5 billion years old.

again you go to the fossil record, which is very limited in its evidence plus the fact that most fossils would be contaminated, providing false readings. do you not think that scientists could be wrong? why do you so willingly accept their viewpoint when there can be no absolute proof they are right?

Therefore creationists 6000 year timeline is just a figment of narrow minded fanatic mysticism , and just downright stupid

i may agree with you here, since no date is given it is ludicrous to pinpoint one moment in time and say that is when it happened. so far we have an archaeological record for 10,000 years. anything beyond that is just wishful thinking. to limit the earth's age to 6,000 years is not smart and creationists should stick to the Bible and say, 'in the beginning' because we do not know when the beginning was.

As for Id , since life developed so long ago (scientificly proveable)

again, that is a false statement as many books i have read litter their work with words like--'we think', 'we believe this to be', 'this may have happened' and so on. scientists do not know thus it is not scientifically proven.

Guys, it is obvious that there is no evidence that either of you will ever accept. Feel free to adhere to your fables if it makes you feel comfortable.

you haven't provided any concrete or credible evidence to date. so far, all i have seen are blanket, generic statements with no substantial foundation or evidentery thinking. you only want us/people to take your word for it.

[Tech]

Arch
I try to give you evidence and you refute decades of work by dedicated scientists , that all fossil evidence could be contaminated , that every test thats been run is flawed in some way , and that all dating thats been done must be incorrect . No one can prove evoloution 100% but since the majority of evidence supports it ,and no other "factual" premise has been put forward , why do you refute logic?
And to just deny, deny deny is the refuge of the wrong.
Please do nat fall back on the tenents of faith and mysticism as that is unprovable propaganda used to control the masses .
Try some of these sites it may enlighten you..........but I doubt it

http://www.originoflife.org.uk/

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... orgel.html

http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/courses ... igins.html

http://www.palaeos.com/Geochronology/ra ... dating.htm

[Guest]

http://www.originoflife.org.uk/

No mention of who the author(s) are, or their qualifications...........

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... orgel.html

The author has supposedly had a Doctorate for 56 years, and been a Professor for 40-but there's no mention of a single reference work that he's bound to have written in all that time; it's compulsory for academics; it's how they justify their jobs!

http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/courses ... igins.html

Third-rate series of lecture notes without a single reference or further reading list anywhere. So in other words, just take his word for it-he can't possibly be wrong!

http://www.palaeos.com/Geochronology/ra ... dating.htm

Spends more time telling you how inaccurate C14 and Dendrochronological dating is than anything else......

[Minimalist]

I've suggested books by reputable scholars, you decline to read them

No, I obviously missed that part. Refresh me.

Start with Israel Finklestein and William Dever.

You only want simple answers to complex problems

I'll settle for evidence, if you care to actually give me any. Could the problem be that you don't actually understand it yourself?

You don't want evidence. You want vindication for fairy tales. If you were serious you could start with the work of the archaeologists mentioned above. I won't hold my breath.

like you get out of your bible (and I call it yours because you apparently subscribe to its nonsense.)

There you go jumping to conclusions again. I've never said any such thing, and you apparently consider anyone who disagrees with you to be some kind of religious nutter-without proof.

Yeah. Religious nutter is a pretty valid description. And I'll paraphrase my earlier observation: If you don't want to be mistaken for a duck, stop quacking.

Keep on believing that God created man out of dirt....instead of the obvious fact that man created god out of his own fears.

You said that, I didn't. See my previous comments. And Stephen Roberts is obviously an irrelevent non-entity, since you don't want to embarass yourself by answering my question.

You could find it on Google if you wanted to. You won't believe anything I say.

[Guest]

Start with Israel Finklestein and William Dever.

According to this http://www.dandavidprize.org/laureates/ ... stein.html ..."Israel Finkelstein is widely regarded as a leading scholar inthe archaeology of the Levant and a foremost applicant of archaeological knowledge to reconstructing biblical Israelite history..." and "...has attempted to combine archaeology and philology, to show how archaeological evidence can lead to new textual interpretations and how texts can elucidate the meaning of archaeological evidence, all focussed within one region where both bodies of evidence still survive"
Isn't that the opposite of what you're trying to say?!

You don't want evidence. You want vindication for fairy tales

So, you finally admit your "theories" are fairy tales? Had to come, I suppose!

Yeah. Religious nutter is a pretty valid description. And I'll paraphrase my earlier observation: If you don't want to be mistaken for a duck, stop quacking.

You don't know me. You know nothing about me. But because you can't prove me wrong, you resort to insults. No less than I've come to expect.

You could find it on Google if you wanted to. You won't believe anything I say.

And what exactly makes Google more reliable?

[Tech]

D/B , Arch
Here is a basic timeline accepted by nasa and most universities worldwide
disprove one part of it with facts , and I will listen , but you wont because you cant .

Time
(Myr ago) Event
4600 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
4300 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
4300 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space
4000 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
3800 The Earth's crust solidifies--formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
3800 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
3500-2800 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
3500-2800 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth's chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
2400 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
2000 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation
1600 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen--last banded iron formations
1500 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
1500-600 Rise of multicellular organisms
580-545 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
545 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms
528-526 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
517-515 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
500-450 Rise of the fish--first vertebrates
430 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
420 Millipedes have evolved--first land animals
375 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
375 Appearance of primitive sharks
350-300 Rise of the amphibians
350 Primitive insects have evolved
350 Primitive ferns evolve--first plants with roots
300-200 Rise of the reptiles
300 Winged insects have evolved
280 Beetles and weevils have evolved
250 Permian period mass extinction
230 Roaches and termites have evolved
225 Modern ferns have evolved
225 Bees have evolved
200 Pangaea starts to break apart
200 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
200 Appearance of mammals
145 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
136 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
100 Primitive cranes have evolved
90 Modern sharks have evolved
65 K-T Boundary--extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
60 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
60 Herons and storks have evolved
55 Rabbits and hares have evolved
50 Primitive monkeys have evolved
28 Koalas have evolved
20 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
20-12 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
10-4 Ramapithecus exist
4 Development of hominid bipedalism
4-1 Australopithecus exist
3.5 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
2 Widespread use of stone tools
2-0.01 Most recent ice age
1.6-0.2 Homo erectus exist
1-0.5 Homo erectus tames fire
0.3 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc--roughly as bright as the Moon
0.2-0.03 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
0.05-0 Homo sapiens sapiens exist
0.04-0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
0.025-0.01 Most recent glaciation--an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
0.02 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
0.01 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
0.01 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery
0.006 Writing is developed in Sumeria

And it is criminal to dismiss the millions of man hours that serious scientists have spent gathering knoweldge to revert to a fictitious tome that needs a leap of faith to get past page one

[stan]

Good job, tech.

[Guest]

D/B , Arch
Here is a basic timeline accepted by nasa and most universities worldwide
disprove one part of it with facts , and I will listen , but you wont because you cant .

Time
(Myr ago) Event
4600 Formation of the approximately homogeneous solid Earth by planetesimal accretion
4300 Melting of the Earth due to radioactive and gravitational heating which leads to its differentiated interior structure as well as outgassing of molecules such as water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide
4300 Atmospheric water is photodissociated by ultraviolet light to give oxygen atoms which are incorporated into an ozone layer and hydrogen molecules which escape into space
4000 Bombardment of the Earth by planetesimals stops
3800 The Earth's crust solidifies--formation of the oldest rocks found on Earth
3800 Condensation of atmospheric water into oceans
3500-2800 Prokaryotic cell organisms develop
3500-2800 Beginning of photosynthesis by blue-green algae which releases oxygen molecules into the atmosphere and steadily works to strengthen the ozone layer and change the Earth's chemically reducing atmosphere into a chemically oxidizing one
2400 Rise in the concentration of oxygen molecules stops the deposition of uraninites (since they are soluble when combined with oxygen) and starts the deposition of banded iron formations
2000 The Oklo natural fission reactor in Gabon goes into operation
1600 The last reserves of reduced iron are used up by the increasing atmospheric oxygen--last banded iron formations
1500 Eukaryotic cell organisms develop
1500-600 Rise of multicellular organisms
580-545 Fossils of Ediacaran organisms are made
545 Cambrian explosion of hard-bodied organisms
528-526 Fossilization of the Chengjiang site
517-515 Fossilization of the Burgess Shale
500-450 Rise of the fish--first vertebrates
430 Waxy coated algae begin to live on land
420 Millipedes have evolved--first land animals
375 The Appalachian mountains are formed via a plate tectonic collision between North America, Africa, and Europe
375 Appearance of primitive sharks
350-300 Rise of the amphibians
350 Primitive insects have evolved
350 Primitive ferns evolve--first plants with roots
300-200 Rise of the reptiles
300 Winged insects have evolved
280 Beetles and weevils have evolved
250 Permian period mass extinction
230 Roaches and termites have evolved
225 Modern ferns have evolved
225 Bees have evolved
200 Pangaea starts to break apart
200 Primitive crocodiles have evolved
200 Appearance of mammals
145 Archaeopteryx walks the Earth
136 Primitive kangaroos have evolved
100 Primitive cranes have evolved
90 Modern sharks have evolved
65 K-T Boundary--extinction of the dinosaurs and beginning of the reign of mammals
60 Rats, mice, and squirrels have evolved
60 Herons and storks have evolved
55 Rabbits and hares have evolved
50 Primitive monkeys have evolved
28 Koalas have evolved
20 Parrots and pigeons have evolved
20-12 The chimpanzee and hominid lines evolve
10-4 Ramapithecus exist
4 Development of hominid bipedalism
4-1 Australopithecus exist
3.5 The Australopithecus Lucy walks the Earth
2 Widespread use of stone tools
2-0.01 Most recent ice age
1.6-0.2 Homo erectus exist
1-0.5 Homo erectus tames fire
0.3 Geminga supernova explosion at a distance of roughly 60 pc--roughly as bright as the Moon
0.2-0.03 Homo sapiens neanderthalensis exist
0.05-0 Homo sapiens sapiens exist
0.04-0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens enter Australia from southeastern Asia and North America from northeastern Asia
0.025-0.01 Most recent glaciation--an ice sheet covers much of the northern United States
0.02 Homo sapiens sapiens paint the Altamira Cave
0.012 Homo sapiens sapiens have domesticated dogs in Kirkuk, Iraq
0.01 First permanent Homo sapiens sapiens settlements
0.01 Homo sapiens sapiens learn to use fire to cast copper and harden pottery
0.006 Writing is developed in Sumeria

Well, so you say, at any rate. Not a reference or source quoted anywhere, since apparently evolution is SO obvious as to not require proof. Which is what I keep asking for!

And it is criminal to dismiss the millions of man hours that serious scientists have spent gathering knoweldge to revert to a fictitious tome that needs a leap of faith to get past page one

And that's about as biased a statement as we've come to expect. It's amazing how ratty you people get when anyone dares not to take your word for it....

[Tech]

How can all that be sourced ..be real realist lol
I told you it was mainstream
I told you all you would do is deny deny deny
As for bieng biased.. If I drew a cartoon of jesus and a bomb where would you be throwing the rocks at right now

[Guest]

How can all that be sourced ..be real realist lol

there is nothing there that you can prove to be true. you have no records from those time periods to prove that list right and that it happened in that manner.

I told you it was mainstream

just because nasa and some universities want to believe it, doesn't make it magically true. they are basing their belief upon some scientists modern day word with no ounce of same time period witness to corroborate the time frame or action.

I told you all you would do is deny deny deny

how can i agree with you, you have no observations that any of those things really happened. scientists do not even know what the original conditions were to begin it all, so how can they even begin to think that this list is accurate?

As for bieng biased.. If I drew a cartoon of jesus and a bomb where would you be throwing the rocks at right now

i wouldn't be throwing rocks. you are free to do whatever you like, i have to treat you like i believe and by what scripture says.

it is amazing how many people jump on the bandwagon because some government agency or university decides this is so. are they infallible that they warrant such a following? i think not, they can be wrong.

No one can prove evoloution 100% but since the majority of evidence supports it ,and no other "factual" premise has been put forward , why do you refute logic?

i'm not the one refuting logic. there are too many little idosynchrisies that have no purpose if left to evolution. you can't even explain why evolution made changes from transitional to sexual reproduction. you can't even explain why evolution would make male and female, at best species would be asexual. nor can you explain how evolution got two of the exact same transitional forms together, both being opposite sexually at the same time, the same place and even that they like each other.

with creation, i can explain it all, evolutionists can't do better than 'we think', 'we believe...' and so on. the problem is that the evolutionary theorists do not want to believe the Bible, so they hang their hats on whatever theory is the best alternative no matter how impossible it is to prove.

[Tech]

You can prove creation , you can prove the bible correct ,
whats next water into wine , walk on water
Religeon is faith with not one fact to back it up and i wish it was otherwise
I'm tired of putting links to sites about evolution and the origins of life
"scientific sites"
I'm tired of refuting mystical claptrap
This is "not" a religeous forum
This is an Archaeological forum (science)
I believe there are plenty lunatic fringe creationist and Id sites out there I'm sure JM found one.
If you want to discuss archaeology check out the site frank just posted
lovely "facts and figures" and truly worthy of discussion

[Guest]

Religeon is faith with not one fact to back it up and i wish it was otherwise

everything you see is the result of creation and it has all the facts, it is those who wish to believe in something else that twists things to make it look foundationless.

I'm tired of putting links to sites about evolution and the origins of life
"scientific sites

then don't but at least give your opinion.

This is "not" a religeous forum

no one is preaching, just refuting the 'facts' you all say support evolution.

I believe there are plenty lunatic fringe creationist and Id sites out there

it is always the same. just because someone doesn't agree with you or your 'proof' does it mean they are lunatics. if you are open-minded then you would not resort to name calling or banishment. it is obvious that even archaeology owes it origin to religion thus religion can not be excluded from the discussion no matter how much you hate it.

[Guest]

How can all that be sourced ..be real realist lol
I told you it was mainstream

And "mainstream" equals "correct", apparently.

As for bieng biased.. If I drew a cartoon of jesus and a bomb where would you be throwing the rocks at right now

I'm an atheist...why would I be throwing rocks in the first place? And you're obviously another one who denigrates critics as "religious fundamentalists", when you can't win an argument any other way.

[Tech]

"quote"
it is obvious that even archaeology owes it origin to religion thus religion can not be excluded from the discussion no matter how much you hate it.

Whose religeon Arch ?
Yours ?
Bible right Koran wrong
Hindus , krishnas , Taoists ? What about there religeon ?
Wickas ? older than christianity ?
They may be part of history , but keep your faith for you
They are there to be studied as part of history not to control it
If evolution goes against your beleifs , that doesn't make it wrong
The days of the church controling all is in our past not our future