Sumerian King List

[marduk]

Newton didn't keep it a secret at all
he wrote books about it
google
Myth, Ancient History, and the Relative Prestige of Peoples
by Isaac Newton and Oriental Jones

Yeah but is the whole idea of a group of caucasians sweeping into India plausable or baloney

woah
who said anything about Caucasians
thats not even a recognised race anymore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasoid

but then if you knew where 90% of mankind was living at the end of the ice age you'd see how it was always a little invalid anyway
(n.b. 90% of the human race at that time was about 4 million people)

[Forum Monk]

who said anything about Caucasians
thats not even a recognised race anymore

Exactly my point! There is no race which can be defined as some sort of genetically determined subgroup of homo sapiens. And yet as late as 1/2 century ago people were willing (and still do today) kill or die for a meaningless division which is really a sort of ethnic division at best. Even today you find on the internet these ideas of white indian and black indian in southern asia, or white assyrian and black assyrian. I won't justify them with a reference.

[Cognito]

but then if you knew where 90% of mankind was living at the end of the ice age you'd see how it was always a little invalid anyway
(n.b. 90% of the human race at that time was about 4 million people)

Granted that the population of the world was roughly 4 million at the Younger Dryas (orthodoxy as proven elsewhere), but I would place the location you reference at about half that number. There is good reason to believe that the Pleistocene population of Africa was about 1 million and Asia & Australia about the same. After the Younger Dryas almost half the world was on the move in the greatest diaspora ever seen. Most of them were patriarchal but some of them who traveled east at an early date were obviously matriarchal.

[Forum Monk]

Cognito. You are way over my head when you go back 12K years but its fascinating stuff. What little I know, you and Marduk are referencing a post ice age era in which humans began moving from warmer southern climates back into Europe and north Asia. This eastern migration and matriarchal vs patriarchal society seems to be some kind of archaeological inside knowledge of which I would love learn more. Especially, how is it possible to reach these conclusions through archaeological evidence?
Undoubtably off topic here.

[stan]

Marduk, I think ths is a mistake:

Newton didn't keep it a secret at all
he wrote books about it
google
Myth, Ancient History, and the Relative Prestige of Peoples
by Isaac Newton and Oriental Jones

There are quite a few references on line about whether Sir Isaac was
an Arian. (Not Aryan.)
One of his colleagues did indeed lose his position at Oxford for admitting it.

The book you cited above is a book ABOUT Jones and Newton, not by them.

[marduk]

my mistake
Newton was a proponent or Arianism
which is completely unconnected to Aryans

Arianism is a Christological view originally held by followers of Arius, a Christian priest who lived and taught in Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 4th century. Arius taught that God the Father and the Son were not co-eternal, seeing the pre-incarnate Jesus as a divine being but nonetheless created by (and consequently inferior to) the Father at some point, before which the Son did not exist. In English-language works, it is sometimes said that Arians believe that Jesus is or was a "creature"; in this context, the word is being used in its original sense of "created being".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
but he was also a Unitarian
and he believed in the bible code

this is typical of genius intellects
they don't know when to stop theorizing and face reality
Edmund Halley had some silly ideas as well

Edmund Halley in 1692 (Philosophical Transactions of Royal Society of London) put forth the idea of Earth consisting of a hollow shell about 500 miles (800 km) thick, two inner concentric shells and an innermost core, about the diameters of the planets Venus, Mars, and Mercury. Atmospheres separate these shells, and each shell has its own magnetic poles. The spheres rotate at different speeds. Halley proposed this scheme in order to explain anomalous compass readings. He envisaged the atmosphere inside as luminous (and possibly inhabited) and speculated that escaping gas caused the Aurora Borealis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_Ear ... rth_claims

Einstein famously gave credence to the Earth Crust Displacement theory put forward by Charles Hapgood allowing it to be thought of as credible by a whole host of idiots since then
but he was a physicist and not a geologist

theres literally hundreds of examples of faulty reasoning like this
a more recent one being a Mr Hussain of Iraq who thought he'd get away with it
and a little while before him a Mr Milosevic who thought along similar lines

[Forum Monk]

Marduk, I think ths is a mistake:

Newton didn't keep it a secret at all
he wrote books about it
google
Myth, Ancient History, and the Relative Prestige of Peoples
by Isaac Newton and Oriental Jones

There are quite a few references on line about whether Sir Isaac was
an Arian. (Not Aryan.)
One of his colleagues did indeed lose his position at Oxford for admitting it.

The book you cited above is a book ABOUT Jones and Newton, not by them.

Thanks Stan, for clearing that up. I know you folks are very knowledgeable about many things so you know Sir. Newton was a Christian Apologetist as well mathmatical genius and he wrote several works detailing his revisionist views of history based on logical analysis of the known facts during his time. His arianist views fly in the face of mainstream Christianity which holds to a Trinitarian (one God manifest as three distinct persons) doctrine and feels it is one of the essential doctrines which define Christianity. If one is bold enough to challenge that, he is labelled a cultist and in Newton's day, a heretic. However, today some sects of Christianity hold to a revised trinitarian view (ref: Oneness Doctrine) which would have been heretical a few centuries ago.

[Cognito]

Cognito. You are way over my head when you go back 12K years but its fascinating stuff. What little I know, you and Marduk are referencing a post ice age era in which humans began moving from warmer southern climates back into Europe and north Asia. This eastern migration and matriarchal vs patriarchal society seems to be some kind of archaeological inside knowledge of which I would love learn more. Especially, how is it possible to reach these conclusions through archaeological evidence?
Undoubtably off topic here.

Most of this subject is off-topic on this thread, but certainly not all of it (such as the term Aryan). Whether a new thread is created or not is the prerogative of Marduk. Marduk, myself and a few others have been tracing the origin of culture and myths, and combining a variety of disciplines to do so. In some cases, where archaeological evidence is thin, historical genetics can lend a hand. Marduk knows his mythology while I am probably better studied in genetics. There are others who are adept in geology, an important topic during the late Pleistocene when the wheels were literally coming off the cart ... mega-floods, volcanos and earthquakes were unsettling populations, resulting in migrations all over the globe.

The Last Glacial Maximum (23,000bce to 16,000bce) was the greatest ecological calamity on earth since the six-year nuclear winter and resulting 1,000 year frigid period created by Mt. Toba's eruption in 72,000bce, nearly resulting in the extinction of humankind. In the tropics the climate was not affected by the Last Glacial Maxmimum to the point where people were displaced dramatically. However, in Northern latitudes, humans were pushed out of Europe and northern Asia to lower climes. Isolated genetic groups formed in Iberia, Italy/Balkans, the Caucasus, India and Indonesia. If you look at the Middle East at that time the "Fertile Crescent" wasn't so fertile, nor was inland India.

Concentrating many cultures in one spot and then dispersing them all at once, as evidenced by human genetics, results in similar mythology throughout the world. Marduk can reference oral traditions that refer to the period of the Last Glacial Maximum and prior thereto. The study is quite fascinating ... Marduk, please make corrections to the above where needed.

[Forum Monk]

Concentrating many cultures in one spot and then dispersing them all at once, as evidenced by human genetics, results in similar mythology throughout the world. Marduk can reference oral traditions that refer to the period of the Last Glacial Maximum and prior thereto. The study is quite fascinating ... Marduk, please make corrections to the above where needed.

I guess this explains the similairty in many mythologies for example the flood stories? or as I have seen in other threads, the Eden/Adam/Eve stuff, notwithstanding that Marduk has already pointed out that many of those myths were constructed much later and probably to serve some agenda. The question is, are these distorted references to real events, places, humans?

As for the oral traditions refering to 11000bp (end of glacial max.), I don't recall ever seeing anything published about this. Since written language first developed in the Phoenecian and Sumerian regions are these tales preserved in their written legends? I need to go back and re-examine the creation myths, etc. I've seen many of the old stories but little commentary about what they referenced.

[marduk]

I've seen many of the old stories but little commentary about what they referenced.

check out any creation story that features
a flood
something emerging from the water
a serpent or dragon
a sun god
a winged disc
these elements all apear in the original cosmologies of widely seperated peoples
you can't trust the detail
but you can trust the cross cultural similarities when you can't find an obvious cultural link between them like you can with the Hebrew redaction of the Gilgamesh Epic