Homo Erectus' Seafaring Capabilities

[Forum Monk]

Check ou this paper:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/Iron2.pdf

The "discovery" of iron smelting probably was accidental, and though not stated in the above article it could have happened under the charcoals produced by normal wood fires. Especially in firepits which burned frequently or for long periods. And like Charley said, a small chance of the right winds under the right conditions, who knows.


Edit: just to clarify - 3000+ degrees is a mighty hot fire but some ores will separate though the iron itself may not melt. But as a byproduct of other smelting operations it is very possible.

[Digit]

That raises another point Charley, I've seen Iron Pyrites in coal seams, I wonder if that might have been one route to metallic Iron?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Check out this paper:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/Iron2.pdf

The "discovery" of iron smelting probably was accidental, and though not stated in the above article it could have happened under the charcoals produced by normal wood fires. Especially in firepits which burned frequently or for long periods. And like Charley said, a small chance of the right winds under the right conditions, who knows.


Edit: just to clarify - 3000+ degrees is a mighty hot fire but some ores will separate though the iron itself may not melt. But as a byproduct of other smelting operations it is very possible.

Thanks, Monk.

A couple interesting points the paper brings out:

1. Early on, iron was used for ornamental stuff. I've observed the same thing here, with the very few actual finished products recovered:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2012.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2011.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2097.jpg

2. The discovery, probably accidentally, of the necessity to create a reducing environment, via carbon, to smelt iron. The furnace in situ finds are a combination of silicon in a lead matrix. The furnace is relatively small, and creating a reducing environment, even with wood charcoal, would have been easier than larger operations. And, I wonder if the limestone walls of the furnace could have created a flux (coke), even though not intended for that purpose. I'm still researching if the central Texas pyrite is the lead bearing type.

[Minimalist]

The Club usually reacts to early evidence of iron by claiming that it is meteoritic in origin.

[Charlie Hatchett]

That raises another point Charley, I've seen Iron Pyrites in coal seams, I wonder if that might have been one route to metallic Iron?

I've heard of Tertiary beds of coal self igniting:

http://www.wsgs.uwyo.edu/Coal/CR01-1.pdf

And yes, I do believe pyrite can be found in coal seams:

http://www.scrip.pa-conservation.org/aboutamd.htm

Interestingly, Alcoa has a large lignite ( Tertiary) strip mining operation just 30 miles downstream, and east of this site.

[Charlie Hatchett]

The Club usually reacts to early evidence of iron by claiming that it is meteoritic in origin.

Again, the common assumption that our predecessors were less intelligent than us, coupled with the underestimation of their technological capabilites.

[Digit]

Man's greatest advantage over other species would seem to have been that a part of his brain contained some part that enabled him to look at a chance event and to reason from that. The cause and effect that is still part of the way we advance. It would seem that this was already in existance with Erectus.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Man's greatest advantage over other species would seem to have been that a part of his brain contained some part that enabled him to look at a chance event and to reason from that. The cause and effect that is still part of the way we advance. It would seem that this was already in existance with Erectus.

I can't find a thing, cognitively or behaviourly that differentiates Erectus from Sapien. Physically, Erectus reminds me most of modern day Asians...usually smaller in height, thinner, wider faces, etc...also reminds me of Bushmen and Aborigines.

Aborigine:



Bushman:



Negrito (Phillipines):



Erectus:



Perhaps it's time to move the hypothesized genetic "Eve" back by a magnitude or so.

[Digit]

Due to the fierce reaction to some of the comments I've made in the past Charley I wasn't going to make those same observations, but I've been checking some dates as arrived at by the experts and I have to agree.
I wonder if the genetic code of Erectus would differ very much from HSS?
As I've said earlier, genetic change must proceed the event that makes that change into an advantage, but what happens if that event does not occur? Theory says that the genetic change could remain dormant, or be lost, but it could remain within the species for many generations.
Erectus is supposed to have given rise to HSS because of climatic changes in Africa, but if Erectus had reached Australia would he have changed into HSS, and if he didn't, how different would his DNA be?
I'll now retreat to my shelter to await the fall out.

[marduk]

The Club usually reacts to early evidence of iron by claiming that it is meteoritic in origin.

where are you getting yoru information from
the back of a wheaty flakes packet
theres plenty of early evidence of Iron
and yes some of it is meteoric iron
but theres no evidence that it has been smelted
just that it has been cold worked
Sir Leonard Woolley excavated an iron spear tip from an egyptian grave that dated to 2500bce
it was cold worked
finding early iron is not unusual
it doesnt mean that its unorthodox
the iron age is classed as when people caught on to how to work it properly and started refining it through heating

people will work any piece of metal they find
you should go for a walk in the caucasus
the stuff is laying around all over the ground in a metal state ejected by the volcanoes in the area
its why the iron age began in anatolia and why the hittites were so effective in battle
theres an artifact found there that predates 10,000bce made of iron but i forget the details
i think cogs knows about it

[Forum Monk]

but theres no evidence that it has been smelted
just that it has been cold worked

Its not easy to cold work iron. Its not malleable. If its carburated, perhaps it has more of the quality of steel. But raw iron is very brittle.

[marduk]

http://www.hist-met.org/datasheets/datasht03.pdf

[Charlie Hatchett]

Due to the fierce reaction to some of the comments I've made in the past Charley I wasn't going to make those same observations, but I've been checking some dates as arrived at by the experts and I have to agree.
I wonder if the genetic code of Erectus would differ very much from HSS?
As I've said earlier, genetic change must proceed the event that makes that change into an advantage, but what happens if that event does not occur? Theory says that the genetic change could remain dormant, or be lost, but it could remain within the species for many generations.
Erectus is supposed to have given rise to HSS because of climatic changes in Africa, but if Erectus had reached Australia would he have changed into HSS, and if he didn't, how different would his DNA be?
I'll now retreat to my shelter to await the fall out.

Hey, Bro, there are no completely right answers when it comes to DNA, currently. Anyone that says they have a conclusive human migration theory, as it relates to genetics, is way jumping the gun. We're barely deciphering the H.s.s. genome, and Hns is in the works. As far as I know, Erectus hasn't even been attempted, due to the lack of suitable specimens.
The supposed genetic Eve begins with H.s.s, with no regard to her predecessors. She came from somewhere, right? Why were her predecessors necessarily not capable of inserting their genes into the mix? Especially if one holds to an evolutionary world view (which I don’t). Many current hypotheses are way too simplistic

[Charlie Hatchett]

Here's what I think would be a great soundtrack to "Texas Erectus: An Archeological Enigma".

http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... ration.wma

[marduk]

Anyone that says they have a conclusive human migration theory, as it relates to genetics, is way jumping the gun

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... skull.html

Skull Is First Fossil Proof of Human Migration Theory, Study Says