Homo Erectus' Seafaring Capabilities

[Digit]

As regards Iron Monk you are correct of course that any Iron found in its raw state would be useless and the fact Fe is such a common element and was unused for so long indicates that man had little use for it. Cold working Fe would seem to me to have been the act of a masochist, it would need a lot of effort and the darn stuff tends to flake and break up under repeated blows. It's only advantage as decoration is that it doesn't corrode like steel does.
One thing that bothers me about reliance on DNA for population movements Charley is the recognised fact that genes can become 'swamped' by later migrant's DNA till evidence of that DNA is lost from the record, destroying any evidence that the earlier people even existed.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Charlie timing Hatchett wrote:
Anyone that says they have a conclusive human migration theory, as it relates to genetics, is way jumping the gun

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... skull.html
Quote:
Skull Is First Fossil Proof of Human Migration Theory, Study Says

Grine says the skull bore surprisingly little resemblance to Khoe-San,
also known as Bushmen, who have occupied South Africa for at least
15,000 years.

Interesting. Does the skull represent a group that migrated into the area, and then back out? And, if so, why necessarily from east Africa? Why not from further north?

...A study co-author, Katerina Harvati of Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, then compared the skull to those of Neandertals, members of present-day ethnic groups, and European humans from the Late Ice Age (from about 35,000 to 11,500 years ago)...
..."Indeed [the skull's] closest affinities were to people from Europe
[from the Late Ice Age]," he said... "In other words, when I look at this
skull, it looks like the most recent common ancestor of all modern people."
... In a related Science commentary, Goebel, of Texas A&M, wrote,
"Here is the first skull of an adult modern human from sub-Saharan Africa that …can speak to the relationship of early moderns from Africa and Europe."...

Why could the skull not be from ancestors of European or Asian origin? During this period, I, personally, would have been heading south versus north. The M1 haploid's wide distribution in Asia, and limited distribution in Africa leads me to believe Asians migrated to Africa very long ago.

Discovery in Russia
"It's surprising to find [modern humans] showing up so early in one of the coldest
and driest parts of mid-latitude Europe," said study co-author John Hoffecker,
an archaeologist at the University of Colorado at Boulder. "It is perhaps the last
place we would expect some recent immigrants from the tropical zone to be
occupying," he added.

Right?

In summary, how does this skull, and the one found in Russia result in the
cocky claim: “Skull Is First Fossil Proof of Human Migration Theory,
Study Says”?

[Charlie Hatchett]

One thing that bothers me about reliance on DNA for population movements Charley is the recognised fact that genes can become 'swamped' by later migrant's DNA till evidence of that DNA is lost from the record, destroying any evidence that the earlier people even existed.

The arbitrary assignment of the genetic Eve as H.s.s. confuses me.

Why not H.s.n. or H. erectus or a combination of H.s.s., H.erectus and Hsn?

[Digit]

Why not indeed Charlie? The suggestion that we are all developed from 'Eve' is supposed to be the reason for our small genetic diversity and the assumption that HSS was reduced to just a few individuals. Fine, just a few individuals in 'Eve's' group, yes, that does not eliminate the very real probability that other groups existed. Africa is a damn big country!

[Charlie Hatchett]

Why not indeed Charlie? The suggestion that we are all developed from 'Eve' is supposed to be the reason for our small genetic diversity and the assumption that HSS was reduced to just a few individuals. Fine, just a few individuals in 'Eve's' group, yes, that does not eliminate the very real probability that other groups existed. Africa is a damn big country!

Right?

And if H. erectus, as he appears to be, was fully human, then, is it plausible to assume H. erectus interbred with Hss and Hsn?

There seems to be a growing body of evidence supporting the notion Hss and Hsn interbred.

[Minimalist]

I was watching "Walking With Cavemen" on DiscoveryTimes or something last night.

They made the point that while Erectus went wandering around the globe Homo Ergaster stayed home in Africa and that we are descended from Ergaster. Only.

Seems a tad simplistic.

[Cognito]

And if H. erectus, as he appears to be, was fully human, then, is it plausible to assume H. erectus interbred with Hss and Hsn?

There seems to be a growing body of evidence supporting the notion Hss and Hsn interbred.

Charlie, human genetics has increased in sophistication to the point where evolutionary biologists can draw accurate conclusions as to where and how people developed. Yes, there was a Mitochondrial Eve (ME), but that is only part of the picture even though sometimes it is pushed as the whole picture. At the time of ME the following hominid species were running around the world:

Homo sapiens sapiens (ME)
Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Homo erectus (in Asia)
Homo floriensis

As you know, the history of wars is written by the winners. Same situation here since we are only able to track one of four species with genetics at this point. There appears to be some intermingling of populations, but that would be normal since humans will copulate with dang near anything. Most offspring would be sterile and any genetic residue would be washed out over time; however, recent discoveries regarding racial genetics indicates that there could be some residue left over in mega sequences of DNA that confer racial differences by world region.

The science is still in its infancy so we'll know much more in a couple of years after Svante Paabo has completed his initial work with the Neanderthal genome and after you recover erectus bones from your site!

[Forum Monk]

but that would be normal since humans will copulate with dang near anything.

That's why the Egyptians invented beer.

[Minimalist]

That's why the Egyptians invented beer.

One of the great advances in history......along with the remote control.

[Digit]

Thank heavens for that Monk, at least that's more useful than the odd pyramid.

[Charlie Hatchett]

I was watching "Walking With Cavemen" on DiscoveryTimes or something last night.

They made the point that while Erectus went wandering around the globe Homo Ergaster stayed home in Africa and that we are descended from Ergaster. Only.

Seems a tad simplistic.

Right? The way I understand it, Ergaster was just one version of Erectus, who happened lived in Africa, maybe somewhat like the Bushmen. Then your Asian version of Erectus might be the ancestors of Aborigines and Negritos?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Charlie, human genetics has increased in sophistication to the point where evolutionary biologists can draw accurate conclusions as to where and how people developed. Yes, there was a Mitochondrial Eve (ME), but that is only part of the picture even though sometimes it is pushed as the whole picture. At the time of ME the following hominid species were running around the world:

Homo sapiens sapiens (ME)
Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Homo erectus (in Asia)
Homo floriensis

As you know, the history of wars is written by the winners. Same situation here since we are only able to track one of four species with genetics at this point. There appears to be some intermingling of populations, but that would be normal since humans will copulate with dang near anything. Shocked Most offspring would be sterile and any genetic residue would be washed out over time; however, recent discoveries regarding racial genetics indicates that there could be some residue left over in mega sequences of DNA that confer racial differences by world region.

The science is still in its infancy so we'll know much more in a couple of years after Svante Paabo has completed his initial work with the Neanderthal genome and after you recover erectus bones from your site!

Thanks, Pat.

Yes, there was a Mitochondrial Eve (ME), but that is only part of the picture even though sometimes it is pushed as the whole picture.

Yeah, the whole picture would consider from whom ME descended. H erectus and Hsn are treated, by many, as non-existent in the equation. I don't buy that notion.

...normal since humans will copulate with dang near anything...

...

Homo sapiens sapiens (ME)
Homo sapiens neanderthalis
Homo erectus (in Asia)
Homo floriensis

Why not consider the first 3, at least, are the same species, with genetic variation, instead of all-together different species.

Most offspring would be sterile and any genetic residue would be washed out over time...

This is assuming they're different species. Is there any hard evidence against successful reproduction between H. erectus, Hsn and Hss?

...after you recover erectus bones from your site!

Man, that would be a dream come true!!! Here's hoping, Bro!!

[Charlie Hatchett]

That's why the Egyptians invented beer.

God bless em' !!

[Digit]

No hard evidence at all as far as I know Charley, and the physical form of the various races, and their different approaches to life argues strongly for HSS being a mixture of at least two.

[marduk]

That's why the Egyptians invented beer.

ah bollox they did
credit where credit is due

Sumerians had concocted recipes for eight different beers made from barley and eight from wheat