Deleted

[marduk]

I have no idea about any of the veracity, I've not looked at the primary sources (the references) but it was certainly interesting to read. I also don't have much of an idea of how some of this might apply to your dilemma, however the author certainly delves into the concept of historical artifacts that many archeologists use to "place" artifacts that show up in out of place...places.

the Author has a clear religious agenda
his claims that Velikovskies belief that egyptian history in the first two milleniumns bce was wrong are erroneous
Velikovsky compared the bible to known and established egyptian historuy and in fact claimed that the bible had got it wrong
his opening claim

Ancient History as taught today is a disaster area. Nothing fits convincingly together. The development of the arts, cultures and technologies from earliest times shows inexplicable incongruities. Art historians and archaeologists are in disarray

is completely false
the big clue is later in the article when he goes on and on about the dating of the Exodus

in other words this guy needs a belief that orthodox historians and archaeologists have got it completely wrong
only if this is true can the old testament be factual
it isn't
ce la vie
should check out the agenda of writers before you read the crap they write about Kid
go read some of heavily agendised posters in this forum and you'll soon see what I mean about how having an agenda makes you claim erroneous truths to explain the gaps that exist in their own reasoning

[Charlie Hatchett]

Hey guys. I've been down today with some kind of stomack bug...ugh.

A quick post here, and back to bed I go. Check into the story of Tubal-Cain, his brothers, and the flood that followed. One of Tubal-Cain's brothers, Jubal, is said to have been the father of all who play the harp and flute.

19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of [g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;

Some intriguing parallels to the situation here:



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/bone129.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2012.jpg





http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.co ... t%2028.jpg







http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site61.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site66.jpg



http://cayman.globat.com/~bandstexas.com/site26.jpg

[Charlie Hatchett]

go read some of heavily agendised posters in this forum and you'll soon see what I mean about how having an agenda makes you claim erroneous truths to explain the gaps that exist in their own reasoning

Apparently you’re included in that definition, ol' great, resurrected Babylonian.

[marduk]

One of Tubal-Cain's brothers, Jubal, is said to have been the father of all who play the harp and flute.

so you're now linking in Bible stories to your american finds
can you show me in the bible where it says anything about these events taking place anywhere but near the Garden of eden
it actually says "23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."
are you saying God visited america to get the clay from which he made Adam ?
in that case why is Adam a sumerian word.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e135.html
like it should say
"and after slaying his brother Cain got into a boat and emigrated to what later would be called the united states and all the events detailed next occour in Texas"

claiming a link to your finds with the stories in Genesis is going to get you nothing but ridicule Charlie
claiming that the bible is a history book is also not a good idea

[stan]

I'll just say a couple of obvious things about "smelting."

A big forest fire could have resulted in heat sufficient to "melt rocks."
and someone may have observed this and put 2 and 2 together.

Same for the observation of volcanic activity?
Lightning?
Also for the burning of coal, which is hotter than wood. I don't know if the ancients were burning coal, though.

Also, withough looking into the dates, maybe early baking ovens were capable of producing extreme heat if driven to it.

Plus Ceramics came about before the bronze age,and it requires about 1700 degrees farenheit for earthenware.

[Charlie Hatchett]

claiming a link to your finds with the stories in Genesis is going to get you nothing but ridicule Charlie
claiming that the bible is a history book is also not a good idea

Show me another story that links better to the evidence, and I'll be open to the idea of considering it.

It's not like I started out with this end in mind...but it's the only parallel I've found, so far.

[Minimalist]

Why do you need a "story?"

[marduk]

so what you're saying is that a book written by Hebrews based on stories derived from mesopotamian texts and set in the middle east is the best evidence you have that what you have been finding in america was made by people

if thats the case Charlie
you havent got anything have you


you read the New International Version don't you

fyi its redacted
the period the bible was written was well inside the iron age by over a thousand years
so claiming that Iron was in use shortly after Adam was kicked out of Eden is a scribal error
its the same reason that the bible claims that Abraham was from Ur of the chaldees around 1800bce when in fact the chaldean empire didn't exist until 800 years later.
I read this text to check this out and nowhere does it mention any descendant of Adam being a miner
besides which it quite clearly states

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden

i.e. its not related in anyway whatsoever to America for that you would have to produce the missing parts of the text that claims that Cain built a boat and crossed a vast ocean before settling down in Texas
you would also have to later account for his descendants making it back in time to journey to the plain of Shinar

[Charlie Hatchett]

Why do you need a "story?"

I don't need a story, Min. I just find the parallels (iron smelting, flute playing and a flood) intriguing.

[marduk]

ah I see
you are clutching at straws and picking what evidence to use and which to discard
this is known as "pseudoscience" or more frequently "rubbish"

21 And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe.

how many harps have you dug up lately ?

meanwhile back in mesopotamia harps are well attested

as are flutes

Flutes were ubiquitous in antiquity. In early depictions they are sometimes confused with reedpipes. Their most primitive forms have already been mentioned. In early historical periods they were known in Sumer and Egypt,

[Charlie Hatchett]

so what you're saying is that a book written by Hebrews based on stories derived from mesopotamian texts and set in the middle east is the best evidence you have that what you have been finding in america was made by people

Blah, blah, blah...we already went over all this. Your take only...They very well may have had a common source. Again watch your correlations.

I see I've sparked your religious nature...I'll sit back and smile.

Nothing like yanking a resurrected Babylonian's chain.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Flutes were ubiquitous in antiquity. In early depictions they are sometimes confused with reedpipes. Their most primitive forms have already been mentioned. In early historical periods they were known in Sumer and Egypt,

And in Texas 10,000 B.P. prior to Sumer.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Another parallel:

Iron and Steel
The Book of Mormon states that metals, including iron and steel (an iron alloy), were produced and used among the Book of Mormon peoples. It has been pointed out that there is little evidence of steel production in central and southern America, and would have been difficult to produce steel in those locales.[citation needed] Iron and steel are mentioned together in the Bible.[115]

LDS scholars note that the word steel could have been an approximate translation, actually referring to another type of metal entirely for which there would have been no word in 19th century America (see Tumbaga and similar copper and iron based metals). Steel is only mentioned in three verses (2 Nephi 5:15, Jarom 1:8, Ether 7:9) in the Book of Mormon, all before 360 B.C. (by the book's chronology) and could have referred to an Old-World skill that was forgotten.

Possible evidence exists that iron and steel metallurgy took place among North American indigenous groups. Two internet sources, neither affiliated with the LDS, present a few sites that may provide possible evidence. One unusual site in Central Texas presents a hypothesized furnace carved directly into the bedrock of an ancient creekbed, and includes hypothesized blow holes manufactured also in the limestone creekbed. [116] Several iron bird effigies and an elephant effigy are presented to strengthen the hypothesis. The artifacts and smelting facilities have been found in the same context as Clovis and possible preClovis stone artifacts.

Another website covers not only possible sites in the East, but also provides a small amount of evidence that may indicate that Anasazi or Hohokam tribes in the Southwest performed iron smelting. Other excavations in North America have uncovered what were once possibly iron smelting sites, and archaeological evidence including layering techniques support that they may have existed from pre-historic times (prior to the Hopewellian culture).[117] However, radiocarbon dating evidence for these sites places them at the beginning of the 18th century (1700s). Other researchers believe that these smelting sites were the work of Ohio's immigrants of European descent, although there is no evidence of European settlers in the area at the time.[118] Frontiersmen and trappers were not common, but not unheard of, and are likely candidates for the builders of the furnaces under this theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeolog ... _of_Mormon

[marduk]

Blah, blah, blah...we already went over all this. Your take only

actually its the view of most sane people in the world
that the bible is a collection of older stories rewritten into a monotheistic pattern
the fact that you don't know that and the fact that you are using the new international version and not the original hebrew text for your research shows to exactly what level your ability at biblical research is at
i.e. none you were raised with it and you don't care that its erroneous because you have been indoctrinated into a false belief system which worships an ancient pagan flood god

or in other words
you have nothing to add to your ridiculously tenuous connection of Biblical Genesis to Eden in Texas
thats what I thought
maybe next time you should think these sorts of thinsg through before you post them eh



hey this is cool

Ram in a thicket from Ur, southern Iraq, about 2600-2400 BC

Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns.

written circa 650bce detailing events said to have occurred around 1800bce
any good at math charlie ?

[Charlie Hatchett]

Smithsonian Statement regarding the Book of Mormon

During the early 1980s, reports circulated in LDS culture that the Book of Mormon was being used by the Smithsonian to guide primary archaeological research. This rumor was brought to the attention of Smithsonian directors who, in 1996, sent a form letter to inquiring parties stating that the Smithsonian did not use the Book of Mormon to guide any research, and included a list of specific reasons Smithsonian archaeologists considered the Book of Mormon historically unlikely.[126] In 1998, the Smithsonian revised the form letter they sent in response to this issue to take a less combative stance,[127] specifically replacing detailed allegations of the non-historicity of the Book of Mormon with a simple statement that the Book of Mormon has not been used by the Smithsonian in any form of archaeological research. Mormon scholars suggest this may have been because the 1996 letter contradicts some aspects of research published by Smithsonian staff members; Non-LDS scholars note that the Smithsonian has not retracted any of its previous statements, and feel that the response was toned down to avoid negative public relations with Mormons. Terryl Givens suggests that the change in the statement was "in all likelihood a product of controversy-avoidance."[128]