Giza

kbs2244 · Post by **kbs2244** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:38 pm

I got into this late.
Have we covered the experments mode by the Cal Tech guys with kites?
They raised some nice sized Obelisks in the desert east of LA, and had theory on how wind power could have been used to move those big blocks of stone as well
There was a tie in to the repeated depiction of eagles with spread wings as a symbol of the technique as well.
Last I heard, they were hoping to go the Egypt and try to repeat their expermints in the wind there.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:45 pm

Monk, I think you said earlier that you had been a project manager, was that on civil engineering?
If so you will be able to see what I see with the single ramp system, every time you need to raise its height, construction work stops. Again, these experts have probably not spoken to civil engineers before mounting their hobby horse.

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:46 pm

well thats complete crap
there is no evidence that the Egyptians used Kites
and no evidence that the Nazca indians used balloons while we're on the subject

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:50 pm

I'm not so sure they used ramps on the bigger pyramids either Marduk. Just how many people are they supposed to have had available to accomplish all these tasks, plus the support services needed?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:53 pm

I already told you
ask Herodotus
mind you
his nickname is the father of lies
but hey you got to start with the actual facts rather than the presumed ones
if you research this you'll no doubt find some comment thats states the egyptians would have had to lay one block every 1.1 minutes to complete the great pyramid inside a 20 year timeframe
as usual
there is something missing from this equation

you know me Roy
I'm the type that believes that something given freely has no value
as opposed to something worked out for yourself is invaluable
go look eh

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:00 pm

That's good advice Marduk, now, who should I ask? If you look at the earlier post there's at least half a dozen ideas just on the subject of ramps, how do I decide which one is correct? If any.
How many different ideas are there as to the time scale for the construction. Damn it Marduk they can't even agree amongst themselves who built what, never mind how?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:37 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyra ... _workforce
here are the generally accepted values Roy

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:19 pm

Sorry I was away for a while Digit. You are correct, if one assumes the 2 million blocks and the 20 year time constraint, and the 2 minute per block rate required, a single ramp would have been unfeasible. Unless the ramp was integral part of the structure of itself, winding around like a serpentine road on a mountain. But this does not appear to be the case. The outer casing is stripped away and the interior is a fairly consistent pyramid composed of irregular blocks which get smaller as they go up.

I don't believe it was possible to set a block every two minutes. There is definately something skewing the equation.

btw my speciality was not civil engineering, it was electrical but I worked on large contruction projects and saw things get done that no one believed could be done under time and budget contraints. Then like Min said previously I watched some go months over schedule at 100% over budget.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:36 am

Morning Monk, the rate at which blocks could be positioned would be dramatically increased with an increase in the number of ramps, assuming there was space for them of course. Almost certainly one ramp when then be being heightened. At least on the outer covering the corner stones would have to be set first or dressed in situ and unless the block were lasercut for accuracy at least one block in ever course would have to be dressed to fill the gap.
One point totally defeats me, and that is how the blocks were positioned. In the absence of any lifting holes on the upper face, unless over size blocks were subsequently dressed to remove lifting holes, they must have been pushed into place, and I give up on how that was supposed to have been accomplished.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:46 am

Thanks for the link Marduk. You say these are the 'generally accepted values' . Which ones?
2500BC, but not if you believe the carbon dating.
Number of men. Is that the 20K, or the 30K, or the 36K, 40K, 50K, 200k, or 360K?
Are there any marks on the blocks to indicate that the Egyptians used lifting gear to position the blocks?

marduk · Post by **marduk** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:21 am

but not if you believe the carbon dating

you've been reading the wrong websites again
the carbon dating supports the construction date

you think maybe the wood used in the mortar was felled a long time after the pyramids were built or a long time before
you don't use brand new wood for that kind of thing
you use old wood thats useless for anything else

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:56 am

Er! Marduk, read the link you posted old son, I quoted from that, and that alone.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:22 am

Take a glance at this link about ramps and lifting devices:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories ... dlifts.htm

A search of the web will show some proposed solutions including some hook-like devices. Not sure how these worked however. Another possibility is similar to a "Heppenstahl" (click the pic here to see one sitting on a cradle http://www.equipmatching.com/used_equip ... /12071.php)
This type of device requires no holes and the objects own weight is used to clamp the tongs.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:44 am

The Heppenstahl type of lifter is only usable if the block you're lowering is taller than the one to its side, unless you finish by pushing the block into its final position. The 'classical' method, as used by the Romans, and still in use today, is a 'dove tail' in the top of the block into which is inserted the appropriate lifter, which then spreads into the 'dove tail' and up you go. But as I pointed out earlier, this leaves the characteristic dove tail hole in the top of the block.

Forum Monk · Post by **Forum Monk** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:01 am

Well, I figured you find the fatal flaw of the Heppenstahl so, like you, I thought the block could be lowered and then levered up against the preceeding block. Of course if the device device was turned 90 degrees you don't have the problem of the preceeding block being in the way. You only need front and back clearance. Finally since I knew there were still some problems with the design of the device, I covered my butt by saying "similar to Heppenstahl" thinking they may have been more mechanically clever than me.

The problem as I see it, I am looking at this within a twenty-first century framework with modern tools and technology. If I was there looking at the region around me, with simple bronze tools, and someone said 'let's build this". What would kind of machinery would I devise after I picked my self up off the ground.