Quicker Demise For Neanderthal?

[daybrown]

Thje Ozark midwife I spoke with. I've witnessed a few births, and at best, it is a stressful process. The sheer number of graves found with women who died in childbirth should be a clue.

I dont have academic turf to defend in this, and neither did the midwife. But appraised of the *fact* that the HNS skeleton is much more robust, and the provile is much more simian, lacking the 'figure' guys like, and the fact that the neonat HNS skull was more oval while the HSS neonate skull is more spherical, the cross section of the latter is necessarily larger and more of a challenge-
which she pointed out to me.

Then too, there is the difficulty seen in crossing other species like horses and donkeys. Ocassionaly, the progeny is sexually fertile, but this is far more common with males that have far simpler reproductive systems. So- even if an HNS female survived birthing, her daughters would not nearly be as likely to be fertile as her sons.

So- even the HSS females that cross bred would be less likely to produce fecund daughters. And if that be the case, then we'd expect that the Native Europeans would have far fewer mtDNA lines. Which is *eggzactly* the case. Sykes, "The Seven Daughters of Eve" says only seven can be traced back to arrival in Europe 10,000 to 50,000 years ago. I note that 50ky BP, the only females in Europe were HNS. Since he published, its been reported on the net that two more mtDNA lines have been found in Finland, but the other 7 are found all over Europe.

This stands in stark contrast to Semetic & African gene pools which have scores of mtDNA lines. Why else are there so few in Europe?/

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

Thje Ozark midwife I spoke with. I've witnessed a few births, and at best, it is a stressful process. The sheer number of graves found with women who died in childbirth should be a clue.

Unless these women were buried with their children, who also died while she was in labour, how does anyone know that female Neanderthal skeletons found were women who died in labour? And what do you mean by 'sheer number'? A dozen? Several hundred? That's just sheer conjecture.

[RKAwl-O'Gist]

According to Dr Brian Sykes, author of The Seven Daughters of Eve, Neanderthals and humans didn't interbreed; here is an article from his own website-
www.oxfordancestors.com/articlesView.htmlid=10
And here is a collection of some of his scientific papers from the same source-
www.oxfordancestors.com/papers.html

[Guest]

at best, it is a stressful process. The sheer number of graves found with women who died in childbirth should be a clue.

Daybrown can speak for herself, but as I read the above, she clearly meant that historically, a lot of women died in the stressful process of childbirth, so there would be even more deaths among female Neans bearing bearing a hybrid children. This seems plausible to me.

[Minimalist]

A lot of women died in childbirth right up to the 20th century even in the civilized world.

One suspects that it is still a leading killer in the third world.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

Daybrown can speak for herself, but as I read the above, she clearly meant that historically, a lot of women died in the stressful process of childbirth, so there would be even more deaths among female Neans bearing bearing a hybrid children. This seems plausible to me.

Except it was proven that humans and Neandethals didn't interbreed, by the author of the same book on genetics which daybrown is always quoting. Here is a reference to it www.oxfordancestors.com/articlesView.html?id=22

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] I've witnessed a few births, and at best, it is a stressful process. [...]

Not for all women. I know a few (FYI: Caucasian HSS) who told me birthing was the most fantastic, ginormous climax they ever experienced...!

[daybrown]

www.oxfordancestors.com/articlesView.html?id=22
pulled up a page showing a Native European in what appeared to be an African line. Nothing about HNS. But in any case, I watched Sykes present his case on TV, and take pains to avoid disturbing racial sensibilities.

I dont have that problem. I did *not* cite Syke's opinion, I quoted the *fact* verified by other sources that show there are only 9 mtDNA lines. I did not see where Sykes offered an opinion for *why* there are so few, nor have I seen any other reason than the hybridization process with HSS.

So- rather than try to throw an authorative opinion at me, offer a rational explanation for why there are so few Native European mtDNA lines.

The fact that Sykes cant find any HNS DNA is explained by the simple fact that all the mtDNA is gone, and the Y chromosome is not stable enough to last in the remains we have to be identified. You cant find any HSS Y chromosome from this era either. But here we all are, are we not?

And with red or low levels of melanin. The Inuit have lived even further north for nearly as long, and their skin still has not lost much melanin. Aborigines have lived in Tasmania for nearly as long, (40deg South lat.) and they aint lost the pigmentation either. The only hominids that spent much time, by most accounts something like 180,000 years, in cold climates were the HNS.

So- it was that Y chromosome line that had the white skin, thick bushy beards, big noses, short digits, and forelimbs as adaptations that were then passed on to the 'white' race.

Then too, since Sykes published, its come out that conception aint all its cracked up to be. There is no *moment* of conception. The ovum cell wall is permeable for some time, during which sometimes more than one sperm enters. And as we see in the "Sperm Wars", they need not all be from the same male.

So- when the DNA joins back together, it dont always match up. Sometimes, like a zipper with a bad tooth, a loop will stick out, and part of another string fill find a fit and join up. So- while you never have more than one mother, some of us can have more than one father. Sorting out which snippets that produce characteristics like the adaptations to the ice age is going to be challenging, perhaps hopeless.

Then sometimes, two eggs join together. Who again, need not have the same father. And sometimes, the two sperm that enter an egg are not both xx or yy, and the result either way is often... hermaphroditism. Other times its a sexually fertile, but a little odd, adult.

If conception were as simple as the creationists have it, then the likelihood of HNS ancestry would be zero. But conception is far more variable. IF whites are the result of a HSS/HNS hybridization process, you'd expect far more freaks than found in other races. Look at the archive photos from the circus. The freaks are almost all white. Why is that?

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

So- rather than try to throw an authorative opinion at me, offer a rational explanation for why there are so few Native European mtDNA lines.

I'm not a geneticist, so I have no scientific idea.

If conception were as simple as the creationists have it, then the likelihood of HNS ancestry would be zero

Which is exactly what Sykes said:
"...Among the 500 base segment of the mitochondrial DNA control region, the average distance between any two people among the volunteers from Wales was three mutations. Remembering the rate at which the mitochondrial DNA clock ticks, so that two people with a single mutation between them can be said to have shared a common maternal ancestor about ten thousand years ago, the result from Wales showed tht the average length of time it was necessary to go back in the past to connect any two people from Wales was only thirty thousand years; and even the most extreme difference between two of our volunteers, which was eight mutations, meant that they shared a common ancestor only about eighty thousand years ago. Although this is an enormously long time, it is nowhere near long enough for one of them to have been the descendant of a Neanderthal and the other of a Cro-Magnon. Unless the paleontologists of the replacement school were way off the mark, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons last shared a common ancestor at least two hundred and fifty thousand years ago. That means that the mitochondrial DNA of a Neanderthal descendant and that of a Cro-Magnon descendant would differ, on average, by at least twenty-five mutations. The biggest difference we saw in Wales was only eight. This was not a mixed population of ancient and modern humans. Either the Welsh were all Neanderthal or they were all Cro-Magnon. But which?
The few sequences coming in from other parts of western Europe did not suggest to us that the Welsh were completely different from the rest. The stark alternatives of 100% Neanderthal or 100% Cro-Magnon ancestry seemed to apply throughout Europe. The acid test to distinguish which of the two competing ancestries was the real one would be a comparison between the European sequences and the corresponding data available from other parts of the world, which included our data from Polynesia. If there were big differences of the order of twenty-five mutations or more, between the Europeans and the Polynesians, then the votes would go to a Neanderthal ancestry for all modern Europeans. If the differences were far less than that, it would mean a 100% Cro-Magnon ancestry for Europeans, and a victory for the replacement school at the expense of the multi-regionalists.
When we looked at the data, the biggest number of mutations we found between two people was the fourteen that separated Teri Tupuaki, a fisherman from Mangaia in the Cook Islands, and Mrs Gwyneth Roberts, who cooks the school lunches in Bala, north Wales. These two people, half a world apart, between them solved a puzzle that had divided scholarship for most of the twentieth century. Europeans were not that much different from the rest of the world; certainly nowhere near different enough to justify believing that they were all descended from Neanderthals. And since it was all or nothing, the Neanderthals must have become extinct. All moden Europeans must today trace their ancestry back to much more recent arrivals-to the Cro-Magnons, with their lighter skeleton, their much improved flint technology and their wonderful art. This was absolute replacement of one human species by another"

Sykes, Brian: The Seven Daughter of Eve(London. Bantam Press.2001)Pages 123-125.

As the last Neanderthal died 28,000 years ago, there was NO interbreeding betweem them and humans.
Which means that this:

But conception is far more variable. IF whites are the result of a HSS/HNS hybridization process, you'd expect far more freaks than found in other races. Look at the archive photos from the circus. The freaks are almost all white. Why is that?

...has more to do with your own hang-ups than anything else.

[RK Awl-O'Gist]

[
As the last Neanderthal died 28,000 years ago, there was NO interbreeding betweem them and other human species

Correction for a slight typo.

[guest - stan]

I posted this on another thread, and only one person picked up on it, or
picked at it!

As to interbreeding, or perhaps we should call it
intermarriage, even the newly cited 5,000 year period is a looong time...Lookit, here we are, only about 2000 AD...and think how much has happened in these last two millennia...
If a generation is about 20 years, that would be 1,000 generations during those 5 prehistoric millennia.
This may be a factor in the inheritance or reproduction of diseases/immunity, plenty of time for evolving/adapting to various changes, plenty of time for intermarriage or maybe even other positive (as well as negative) cultural/biological developments.
I would think that the Neans would be able to migrate to get to "greener pastures, " unless the were stopped, maybe hemmed in, by HS. Is that plausible?

I am no geneticist, but I don't quite understand how Sykes' work totally
discounts any interbreeding over such an enormous (5000- year) period. Have HS changed that much? It is well known that even in our short written history, humans have had sex with animals.

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] It is well known that even in our short written history, humans have had sex with animals.

Yes, stan, but that never produces offspring.

[stan]

But RK Awl-O'gist wrote:

it was proven that humans and Neandethals didn't interbreed,

What do you think, Rokcet,...did they never try?

And if they did, and had some offspring, is it a given that the DNA still exists in modern Europeans?

Maybe all their progeny died out, but that doesn't prove there weren't any.

[Rokcet Scientist]

But RK Awl-O'gist wrote:

it was proven that humans and Neandethals didn't interbreed,

What do you think, Rokcet,...did they never try?

Of course they did. All the time!

And if they did, and had some offspring, is it a given that the DNA still exists in modern Europeans?

They might have had offspring, I don't exclude that, but I think those may have been infertile. Like 'Ligers', the offspring of a Tiger and a Lion. Or Mules. So on, so forth. Incapable of reproduction.
So probably no HN DNA in modern HSS.

Maybe all their progeny died out, but that doesn't prove there weren't any.

Their progeny died out allright. Infertile crossbreeds have a tendency of doing that. Real quick too.

[stan]

So they didn't interbreed "successfully."
Daybrown disagrees. We'll see what she says.

It's interesting to imagine that white skin is a neandertal trait!