Burrow's Cave

[clubs_stink]

Hey Charlie,
unless there is something else going on in the "secret" site and there is a current exploration of a way into the cave around the damage I do not believe there will ever be a way to verify to our satisfaction the artifacts claiming to belong to that cave. At this point (without any further knowledge of current investigations) I'd have to say it's bloody unlikely and the items and story is only good for speculation.

HOWEVER you may well run into similar road blocks (in time) with your own excavation which we have all followed here (myself with GREAT envy) should the club ever deign to notice you and feel like they have to discredit you...all the photos and intelligent discourse in the world will not protect the veracity of your site should people want to attack you!!! Now, from what I have read of Borrow's character I don't think you would be as onery or spiteful of naysayers but still, if the Cub ever comes after you I'd hate to be you

[Minimalist]

Charlie will just hit them over the head with a hand axe. Charlie appreciates irony.

[clubs_stink]

FUNNY mini...(and after re-reading my following post I am finding myself thanking DOG that Arch is not here to hyperventilate and tell me how I cannot be right because the bible is. )

In the meantime I want to bore you all with my own theory...I have already mentioned I am in educational publishing so I hope that helps you all understand the thirsty inquisitive mind. As a "for work" researcher I've honed my skills for work but my work is born out of that innate drive and wonder that I was probably born with. I’m not one for conspiracy theories thus my acknowledgement of the club comes more from an understanding of the human attachment to ideas and ego…the unwillingness to relinquish so much as an ounce of knowledge or ever admit you made a mistake…reputations and livelihoods are staked and built on those ideas. For my own part I ALWAYS want to know what other people don’t want me to, hence my anti club attitude.

One way to understand this is the Native American resistance to anyone proving that they were not “first”. The Kennewick man controversy comes to mind and demonstrates this whole concept exactly.

Now to bore you with my theory. I have been reading, and posted some links to, the whole missing kings of the bible were actually pharaohs theory. Some of you know about this some of you don’t…too long to go into. Long story short it is more than possible that there is a shared/combined history between Egyptians and Hebrews. That there is not a shred of archeological evidence of any Exodus and certainly no proof that masses of Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. There ARE missing kings in the bible whose characteristics and deeds (ect.) DO match up with certain pharaohs. But are NOT found (as with King David) in the archeological record as they are literally described in the bible. This is where my theory gets a little whacky…but then again, maybe not.

There are some legends of people of royalty fleeing the area (I am being broad in description here because so many of the stories overlap.) The legends of King Solomon’s mines being located on the North American continent, the copper mines on the great lakes, the work of Barry Fells ..things of the middle east being found on this continent in writing that could not have been known and understood, let alone faked AT THE TIME it was found and documented. So, what if the story of the Exodus is not literally true as written in the bible, but correlates in some fashion with the royal whomever making a run for it and landing here?

I have been following this line of thought/trail for some years and to be honest what is out there is a guy here, a guy there each with individual threads of investigation without even realizing that if they got together their threads might tie up. It’s been quite a journey.

I recently worked on a forensic science book/project and if we applied a few very basic forensic science principles to archeology we just might get to the truth. For instance, a woman is found dead in her home, evidence is collected. A bloody fingerprint, run through AFIS comes back to a pillar of the community arrested once for shoplifting in his youth. Police go see the man, none of the victim’s friends, no one can link this man to the victim…they ask him if he knows her, he says of course not…he’s never been in her house. The cops have him now…because his fingerprint is where it should not be and it is proof he was in the victim’s house with her blood on his hands.

See where I am going here? When objects are found where they should not be, instead of seeing it as “proof of a crime” science tends to view those items as objects of fear, proof that their statutes have feet of clay….instead of acting like cops who would try to prove the evidence, archeologists need to behave more like detectives instead of spending so much energy on ignoring the evidence.

[Minimalist]

I’m not one for conspiracy theories thus my acknowledgement of the club comes more from an understanding of the human attachment to ideas and ego…the unwillingness to relinquish so much as an ounce of knowledge or ever admit you made a mistake…reputations and livelihoods are staked and built on those ideas.

Which was always my position via the "Establishment" but marduk could never understand...or at least pretended not to understand.


As for your theory you are very close to the idea of Israel Finkelstein in his second book, David and Solomon.
The problem is that you look to the SouthWest while Finkelstein looks north.

It is true that in the 10th century Jerusalem was a miserable little one-horse town of perhaps 2,000 people. The most important town of the whole region to be sure but that is irrelevant when the whole region had a population of perhaps 20,000 based on the size and number of villages. So, the idea that Judah was capable of conquering an "empire" is fairly laughable. But, it is also true that at this particular point in history, Egypt was no great shakes, either. Having fended off the invasion of the Sea Peoples in the 12th century, Egypt went into a steady decline which was only briefly interrupted. One of those interruptions was in the late 10th century when the Pharoah Sheshonq invaded Canaan. The bible claims that the great city of Jerusalem was the target of his attack but Sheshonq himself seems not to have known that. On the inscription he wrote of his victories, Jerusalem does not appear. A curious omission but one which Finkelstein notes is not solitary. Sheshonq's attack was aimed at the northern kingdom of Israel which was then coming together. Sheshonq claimed to have conquered the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley and the Central Hill country north of Judah. As Finkelstein notes:

"....it is highly significant that Jerusalem and the highlands of Judah - in fact the entire land of Judah- which are the pharoah's main target in the biblical story, are conspicuously absent from the Karnak list."

Whether Sheshonq overstated his conquests or not is almost irrelevant. His campaign had no lasting effect and it seems probable that Egypt was militarily unable to dominate Canaan for a long stretch of time at this point in history. It is apparent that he did not regard Jerusalem as a target worth attacking and in an age in which war was expected to pay for war it thus seems even more improbable that Jerusalem was anything more than a shithole at this time.

One thing that does seem to have happened as a result is the further solidification of the northern kingdom of Israel which grew into a regional power. The obvious threat from Egypt just demonstrated by Sheshonq and the nearness of Assyria and Aram-Damascus would have been a powerful message for the Israelites to get their act together.

So it is doubtful that there would have been any glorious pharoahs for the Judaeans to emulate but Finkelstein has another contender for you.

"The Court History of David thus offers a whole series of historical retrojections in which the founder of the dynasty of Judah in the tenth century is credited with the victories and acquisitions of territory which were in fact accomplished by the ninth century Omrides."

In a nutshell....when the Judahites finally got around to writing their history, the gussied up David (an insignificant hill top chieftain) by writing him into the story of the growth of the Israelite kingdom. At the same time, the real kings of Israel who were highly successful statesmen and players on the world stage were depicted as idolaters who were punished by 'god' for their transgressions.

It's a really good book.

[Forum Monk]

Mixing your references a little, aren't you Min. Afterall, I thought Sheshonq was Dever's bane, not Finkelstein's, as Finkelstein just prefers down-dating to fit his point of view. But I can deal with all of that later.

The question I would like to ask Clubs: when did these middle-eastern people supposedly arrive in North America?

[Minimalist]

You could read the book, Monk. It must be in libraries by now.

[clubs_stink]

Mixing your references a little, aren't you Min. Afterall, I thought Sheshonq was Dever's bane, not Finkelstein's, as Finkelstein just prefers down-dating to fit his point of view. But I can deal with all of that later.

The question I would like to ask Clubs: when did these middle-eastern people supposedly arrive in North America?

MIN, I think according to the work of FELLS and the evidence of the north, it appears that they went both north AND west??? I am going to start thinking like a cop. The evidence is there...don't tell me a bloody fingerprint doesn't put you at the crime scene and don't try to make a fool of me either..(spoken to the club)

Monk I was in BROAD theory world not minutia but if I theorize that the Exodus didn't happen like the bible claimed. There simply would be PROOF..satelite and otherwise of HOW MANY people tramping through the desert for 40 years camping out dining, making golden calves...yada yada...if we can see in google earth physical evidence left by far fewer people we sure as hell would have been able to see traces of THAT many people...

Here is what I think..Moses was no Heb. He was a RIVAL to the pharoah (stories have it as Ramses but I don't think that is the right pharoah if my memory serves me right.) There were not hoards of Hebs building pyramids who needed saving...WHAT IF "MOSES" was the rebel who tried and failed to wrest control of the kingdom..maybe from his brother??? He tries and fails...FLEES the kingdom with the troops in hot pursuit.

Tales later change MOSES to an outsider who betrays all the kindness shown him by the pharoah's household...

The susequent Heb stories have turned Moses into a savior who was shown favor by GOD..eh? The one GOD? Wasn't that the concept of Akhenaten? (oh crap was that the name of the original pharoah one god fellow?) What if Moses=that guy? who fled and took his followers with him...blah blah blah

I tend to think that Heb=egyptian=whatever else was roaming around out there then..all inter-relating (remember my previous man+woman= theory)

NOW if you REALLY want to reach..(and trust me YOU WILL be reaching go here http://www.sabon.org/reptiloid/index3.html
read that..if you get to the end of part 1 without exploding don't forget to click the link to part 2 at the bottom of the page.) Read what this "woman" says about Egypt (cogs esp. what she says is not so far off) OK I know I know...coo coo for cocoa puffs but with some of my outlandish mental threads that I follow that are so far off stream who am I to judge this Swedish guy?

[clubs_stink]

Mixing your references a little, aren't you Min. Afterall, I thought Sheshonq was Dever's bane, not Finkelstein's, as Finkelstein just prefers down-dating to fit his point of view. But I can deal with all of that later.

The question I would like to ask Clubs: when did these middle-eastern people supposedly arrive in North America?

We know they were here, they left fingerprints. It's just that the people who can tell us exactly when they were here refuse to look at the evidence with the eyes of a forensic scientist! And those are the scholars who could probably nail exactly who, what, when, where, and maybe even why.

[Minimalist]

The only recognizable Semitic group in Egypt was the Hyksos. Entering in the early part of the second millenia they eventually pulled a coup d'etat and set themselves up as the 15th Dynasty.

They were evicted by Pharoah Ahmose I, founder of the 18th Dynasty, and Egyptian hegemony was established over Canaan until c 1150 BC.

In all of that time...basically 8 centuries....the name Israel appears once. On the Merneptah stele trumpeting his victory over Canaan in what may have been more of a parade militaire to shore up Egyptian dominance at the beginning of Merneptah's reign. Such "campaigns" were not unknown in previous Egyptian history.

[clubs_stink]

I believe that I've stumbled onto the issue that could breed world peace

Think of it..the Hebs and the Arabs both think they are special...They both think they have the RIGHT to certain lands and territories They both thing GOD said "this land is your land this land is my land this land was made for you by me" and if the Hebs and the Arabs would stop moving in and lay down their guns long enough to let go of their History by Faith they'd realize that they're all the same and learn to share.

(man that doobie musta been extra big tonight )

[Minimalist]

if the Hebs and the Arabs would stop moving in and lay down their guns long enough to let go of their History by Faith they'd realize that they're all the same and learn to share.

[clubs_stink]

LOL well said Min, well said some things are doomed to be eternal.

[FreeThinker]

No discussion of Burrows cave is complete without knowing this info first:

http://www.flavinscorner.com/falling.htm

Burrow's cave is a hoax...and a bad one at that.

[kbs2244]

Burrows Cave; Los Lunas, N.M.; why Rock Wall, TX got it’s name; all the Egyptian names of places in the “forbidden zone” of the Grand Canyon; all of Gloria Farley’s discoveries; all the things brought to Berry Fell to read; the “Fort Ancient” type structures from New England to Tennessee; the Decalogue Stone; the Michigan Copper Plates; Spiro Mound in Oklahoma; the under water Pyramid in Pyramid Lake, Wisconsin; the aptly names Walled Lake in Iowa; Perdo the Pigmy in Utah; the Newark Holy Stones; the Grave Creek Stone; Mystery Hill in New Hampshire; all the Kennewick and Spirit Cave Man type discoveries; Calalus in Arizona……..

The list of “Out of Place Artifices” that are “suppressed” or “politely ignored” just goes on and on. Is it an organized conspiracy that dates back to Powell, or just reputation protection? Who knows.
But there IS a lot of stuff out there.
And some one once said that “Where there is smoke, there is fire.”

[Minimalist]

I noted a lot of character assassination in that piece, FT, without a lot of science to back it up.

Where is it written that a neo-Nazi cannot make an archaeological discovery, for instance.

Still, I'll read it more carefully later on this evening.