otzi

[Rokcet Scientist]

Yes.

It also could imply that he was an attacker who was wounded and could not keep up with the rest of the group during a subsequent retreat.

Exactly!
See? It's not so difficult. You're getting the hang of it already!

[ravenwing5910]

That still does not address the question of why he was not robbed.

Wouldn't a logical explanation for that be, in a skirmish between clans, or tribes (or whatever). Otzi was shot in the back by an arrow during the battle, then fell, rolling down the hill, and was hidden amongst the brush while the skirmish continued and the combatants in the fighting moved on to another area?

[Digit]

One objection to that RW is that according to forensics he was a local man, so why not head home, why did his people not look for him?
If I remember correctly the arrow entered at an angle from below, that suggests that he was heading uphill, so he was either ambushed or perhaps leaving the scene of conflict.
He was also carrying a lot of equipment, was he travelling, or was he a bandit perhaps?

[Rokcet Scientist]

[...] why did his people not look for him? [...]

Why are you assuming they didn't?

Yesterday, a 76 yr old handicapped man phoned with his mobile phone that he was lying somewhere in a ditch between villages, because his electric wheelchair had overturned round about 3 or 4 pm. The old man was very confused, so he could not properly describe where he was, or what he could see, or hear. Mobile phone triangulation didn't work because his phone used Belgian and German providers, instead of a Dutch provider. And his phone battery died around 11 pm. It was all over the radio all night long. Hundreds, perhaps even thousands of people in that region went out looking for the man during the night. None found him!

So even if Ötzi's clansmen looked for him in force, chances are overwhelming they would not have found him. Especially since that was in the (very) high Alps, which is extremely difficult terrain (and oxygen poor).

FYI: the old man was found at 1 pm today in a pasture near the ditch and his overturned wheelchair. In reasonably good health (thanks to summer night temperatures), but very confused. He was taken to hospital.

Ötzi wasn't so lucky.

[Minimalist]

So even if Ötzi's clansmen looked for him in force, chances are overwhelming they would not have found him.

ESPECIALLY if his cell phone died!!!

[Rokcet Scientist]

When you're going, you're going.

[ravenwing5910]

One objection to that RW is that according to forensics he was a local man, so why not head home, why did his people not look for him?
If I remember correctly the arrow entered at an angle from below, that suggests that he was heading uphill, so he was either ambushed or perhaps leaving the scene of conflict.
He was also carrying a lot of equipment, was he travelling, or was he a bandit perhaps?

Perhaps "home" was sacked, invaded. My point is that we cannot make assumptions that he was murdered, nor that he was alone, there could be more out there that we simply haven't found yet. There is insufficient evidence to determine under what circumstances he died, it is all conjecture (which is fun, but cannot be conclusive). There are so many possibilities, so many stories that could told (that is what I love about archaeology, digging through them all and perhaps getting close to an answer).

[Minimalist]

Yeah, true enough. The facts are that the body was found with all its equipment high up in the Alps. It took a few years for them even to figure out that he had been shot by an arrow.

This latest theory that he died fairly quickly seems to be at odds with the other evidence though and that's what's interesting.

[kbs2244]

An arrow entry "from below" could also mean he was hit while laying face down.
For the screenplay we have a chase, trip and fall, shot, crawl over an edge and fall out of reach scenario. Another highway robbery gone bad.
From the quality of his clothing and equipment, we know he was an expert in living in that territory.
And now we know it was inflicted violence. Hunter, guide, smuggler, whatever. It may have been professional jealousy for all we know.
“Oetzi? I haven’t seen him for a while. Why? You need a guide?”

[Digit]

All good points KB, but I doubt that he was shot by someone standing over him. My reasoning is that, why bother? Use a knife, rock, club etc.
The body was found with no arrow shaft in it, that would be reasonable under certain circumstances, perhaps he pulled it out himself, or alternatively it may have been a hunting arrow.
To produce an arrow is not a 5 minute task, firstly you have to find a suitable shaft, this must stripped of its bark, probably straightened by heating and bending, it must then be fletched, which normally meant binding and glueing the feathers into place.
You have to aquire the feathers as well, then the glue, animal or vegetable, which must then be prepared and finally a point must be made and fitted.
Some arrow heads were glued and bound into the shaft, but hunting arrows often had only glued in points. If you wounded your prey, with luck the body warmth, plus movement, then freed the shaft to drop out with the possibilty of recovery and also avoided breakage when the animal fell. Saves a lot a work!

[Mayonaze]

We could speculate endlessly, but ...

That he was found at high altitude and that the arrow apparently entered "from below" may mean that Otsi was involved in a defensive battle and that he or his troupe had some time to prepare by occupying high ground - or maybe they were chased there. A hill top or other elevated position would be a logical choice for a group that doesn't possess an overwhelming numerical advantage - it is easier to defend - but food would be scarce. The battle may have moved on once he took the wound by an arrow shot from a lower elevation. That he and his axe weren't recovered suggest that his group was eventually overwhelmed, although not necessarily at the same site.

[Digit]

Either that axe didn't have the value we are led to believe, ie, they were much more common than believed, or he escaped his killer.

[Minimalist]

It's all speculative but I'd think that rolling the bodies would have been a prime objective.

Besides, why leave the quiver of arrows? You're right. It took a lot of time to make them and they'd be worth having.

Somehow, the wound was not so severe as to cause rapid death and he evaded his attackers...or, injured his attacker enough so that pursuit was not possible.

[Beagle]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/ ... Demise.php

ROME, Italy: Researchers studying Iceman, the 5,000-year-old mummy found frozen in the Italian Alps, have come up with a new theory for how he died, saying he died from head trauma, not by bleeding to death from an arrow.

Just two months ago, researchers in Switzerland published an article in the Journal of Archaeological Science saying the mummy — also known as Oetzi — had died after the arrow tore a hole in an artery beneath his left collarbone, leading to massive loss of blood, shock and heart attack.

This new cause of death finding raises all the old questions again.

[Minimalist]

The researchers believe the Iceman fell over backward, but was then turned over onto his stomach by his aggressor who then pulled out the arrow shaft while leaving the arrowhead imbedded in Oetzi's shoulder.

He could have pulled it out himself and acheived exactly the same result.


Besides, that whole scenario does not explain why they didn't rob the body.