Neanderthal News

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:03 pm

I've had a problem with that concept from the beginning, Dig. This was not an invasion. There were not companies of panzergrenadiers charging ahead looking to secure bridgeheads for the tanks!

A small band of HSS coming into contact with a small band of HNS may have had some conflict but in the style of fighting of the age it is not conceivable that there would not have been casualties on both sides and how many HG groups can sustain repeated losses to their most valuable hunters.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:52 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20728725/

Two molar teeth of around 63,400 years old show that Neanderthal predecessors of humans may have been dental hygiene fans, the Web site of newspaper El Pais reported on Tuesday.

The teeth have "grooves formed by the passage of a pointed object, which confirms the use of a small stick for cleaning the mouth," Paleontology Professor Juan Luis Asuarga told reporters, presenting an archaeological find in Madrid.

So Neanderthal used a toothpick - but did he floss?

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:53 pm

I see some modern comments Min as the last vestiges of the 19C hairy, round shouldered, bow legged, beetle browed, cave man scenario.
It's time it was buried!

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:58 pm

Agreed....but then why did Neanderthal lose out?

Or did they??

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:21 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that HN has simply merged with HSS and is waiting to be discovered somewhere in our present day genetic make-up. If we only knew where and how to look for what patterns. It's probably staring us in the face, but we don't see it. Yet.
One day someone will have a eureka moment.

Digit · Post by **Digit** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:21 pm

Good question!

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:27 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that HN has simply merged with HSS

The Club will be coming after you with torches and pitchforks for that one, R/S!

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:17 pm

Minimalist wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that HN has simply merged with HSS

The Club will be coming after you with torches and pitchforks for that one, R/S!

They can join the Korean EFL mob!

john · Post by **john** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:19 pm

For what its worth -

Problema:

Neandertals go back couple three hundred thousand years, if not more.

HS, maybe 100k years? Max.

So, unless, genetically, the HS line was derived from the HN line, the possibility of interbreeding is about the same as between present day gorillas and humans.

There is way too much genetic distance, here.

I know that there has just been published a king hell article that climate change was not the source of HN's demise.

I disagree.

Maybe not climate, per se, but loss of habitat did in the Neandertals. Look at it this way. They existed in small, mobile groups. At the height of their culture, these groups, geographically, were within arm's reach of each other. At no time were they a huge population (anyone got figures on max Neandertal population?).

Here's my thought -

Habitat loss led to both increased physical separation of Neandertal bands and increased mortality within the group. Climate change was forcing them into migration without accustomed food sources. Higher death rate, lower contact rate with other bands.

Very simply, attenuation of a population, never large to begin with, to the point that they coould not sustain themselves; they went extinct.

john

Post by **Minimalist** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:06 pm

HS, maybe 100k years? Max.

There was a recent announcement of an HSS in Morocco dated to some 160-190k years ago.

Rokcet Scientist · Post by **Rokcet Scientist** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:05 am

john wrote:For what its worth -

Problema:

Neandertals go back couple three hundred thousand years, if not more.

HS, maybe 100k years? Max.

As Min points out, HN doesn't appear to have been that much older than HSS. Less age difference = less genetic difference = more 'mixable'?

Hell, it ain't even sure when HE went extinct, so perhaps latter-day HE's morphed with HN's into HSS?

So, unless, genetically, the HS line was derived from the HN line, the possibility of interbreeding is about the same as between present day gorillas and humans.

There is way too much genetic distance, here.

There is 'too much genetic distance' between gorillas and humans. We KNOW that.
Afaik, we don't KNOW there was 'too much genetic distance' between HN and HS to prevent mixing. That's an assumption without basis, imo.

I know that there has just been published a king hell article that climate change was not the source of HN's demise.

I disagree.

Maybe not climate, per se, but loss of habitat did in the Neandertals. Look at it this way. They existed in small, mobile groups. At the height of their culture, these groups, geographically, were within arm's reach of each other. At no time were they a huge population (anyone got figures on max Neandertal population?).

Here's my thought -

Habitat loss led to both increased physical separation of Neandertal bands and increased mortality within the group. Climate change was forcing them into migration without accustomed food sources. Higher death rate, lower contact rate with other bands.

Very simply, attenuation of a population, never large to begin with, to the point that they coould not sustain themselves; they went extinct.

Yes, that could have been an important factor. But maybe not a cause, but rather a catalyst: a tipping factor.
Imo, it's not this OR that cause that was the more or less exclusive reason for HN's extinction. It's probably all of them combined.

daybrown · Post by **daybrown** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:39 pm

To be sure, there are many factors in the HNS demise. A more accurate reconstruction of the climate changes would help. The caloric intake needed suggested that the HNS would've been hit harder by food shortage.

But the really big killer was the hybridization process which wiped out all but one of the mitochondrial lines. This is not often delved into because of the racist implications of "white people" being different because of Neanderthal genes.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:29 pm

DB, we went into the racial,ie, caucasian, aspects of Neanderthal morphology some time ago. No good discussion of him would be complete without it. Nothing racist about it, just comparitive anatomy. After all, racial characteristics are only an adaptation to one's environment.

The latest scientific view, to answer John, is that HS and HN have been separated for 400,000 yrs. That's well down from the original estimates.

As to the extinction, I believe that it is still happening. I recently read (maybe I can find it) that red hair will have dissappeared by 2100. I don't agree with that, but there is no doubt that redheads are fewer and fewer. I think they will be present in Iceland for quite a while longer than 2100.

The reason for that is genetic dominance. We take it for granted that certain genes are recessive today, and realize that with todays mobility of people around the globe, red haired people mate with dark haired people. Blue eyes are recessive to brown eyes. No mystery.

There may not be much more to the mystery.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:31 pm

I forgot to mention that the recent news from the Neanderthal Genome project is that Neanderthal was probably red haired. Many of us have speculated that that was the case for years.

Post by **Minimalist** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:16 pm

Beagle wrote:I forgot to mention that the recent news from the Neanderthal Genome project is that Neanderthal was probably red haired. Many of us have speculated that that was the case for years.

Really?

Very interesting.