Forget global warming - look at root causes
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Forum Monk
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i must give credit to the Charlie Rice show, which had Alan Greenspan, to which Charlie made references to Comptroller of the USA, David Walker, and the need to adjust entitlements.
About which, Greenspan admitted, nothing had been done. And we here, with a longer view of history, must realize that nothing will be done until China, with its own oil and food supply in hand, pulls the plug on the dollar.
I read that the Three Gorges Dam is ahead of schedule. I've read they expect to irrigate land the size of Arizona. They're also building pipelines to Iran & the 'Stans. If they have all the oil they want, and can grow all the grain, the ROI for American agribusiness will plummet, the trade imbalance will crash the dollar, and do it as the boomers want to retire.
Which, I think, makes the wrinkles in Alan's forehead. Maybe Hillary will be able to bitch slap the congress into doing something useful. Like China, it'll take One Party control.
About which, Greenspan admitted, nothing had been done. And we here, with a longer view of history, must realize that nothing will be done until China, with its own oil and food supply in hand, pulls the plug on the dollar.
I read that the Three Gorges Dam is ahead of schedule. I've read they expect to irrigate land the size of Arizona. They're also building pipelines to Iran & the 'Stans. If they have all the oil they want, and can grow all the grain, the ROI for American agribusiness will plummet, the trade imbalance will crash the dollar, and do it as the boomers want to retire.
Which, I think, makes the wrinkles in Alan's forehead. Maybe Hillary will be able to bitch slap the congress into doing something useful. Like China, it'll take One Party control.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
Your observations appear logical DB but ignore one essential point. China is a massive trading empire, and all traders have one need in common, customers.
China can not afford to bankrupt America unless she is willing to support many millions of her own people out of her own resources.
This comes down to the village that attempted to support itself by each household taking in anothers laundry. To function as a capitilist economy, which whether the Manderins like it not, China now is, money and goods must flow in both directions.
China, as with Japan, has once run a closed economy, and from being a world leader became a basket case, and China is very sensitive of that fact. China's foreign policy in recent years has more and more focused on establishing a world leadership, she is unlikely to turn away from that path now.
China can not afford to bankrupt America unless she is willing to support many millions of her own people out of her own resources.
This comes down to the village that attempted to support itself by each household taking in anothers laundry. To function as a capitilist economy, which whether the Manderins like it not, China now is, money and goods must flow in both directions.
China, as with Japan, has once run a closed economy, and from being a world leader became a basket case, and China is very sensitive of that fact. China's foreign policy in recent years has more and more focused on establishing a world leadership, she is unlikely to turn away from that path now.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
All -
Good arguments ............ but missing the ultimate point.
I'll start by quoting (from memory) Gary Snyder: "Knowing we need do nothing, is where we begin." The Zen view. This is the apposite end of the argument presented by the Manifesto.
However.
Its pretty clear that, as a species, we have far exceeded our "carrying capacity", which was my real point in posting the Manifesto.
Not politics.
My own definition of carrying capacity is " the level of population, combined with the level of consumption of natural resources, which does not degrade either the biological health of the Earth or the quality of life for other species."
One can quote nationalist arguments ad nauseam,
but playing the blame game (politics, anyone?) won't solve the problem.
I don't have an easy answer for this one.
Other than the fact that we are exactly now creating our own archaeological future, and possibly extinction, of not only H.s., but a hell of a lot of the world and its species (which absolutely do not deserve extinction by homo sap fiat), as we speak.
Anyone want to bell the cat?
john
Good arguments ............ but missing the ultimate point.
I'll start by quoting (from memory) Gary Snyder: "Knowing we need do nothing, is where we begin." The Zen view. This is the apposite end of the argument presented by the Manifesto.
However.
Its pretty clear that, as a species, we have far exceeded our "carrying capacity", which was my real point in posting the Manifesto.
Not politics.
My own definition of carrying capacity is " the level of population, combined with the level of consumption of natural resources, which does not degrade either the biological health of the Earth or the quality of life for other species."
One can quote nationalist arguments ad nauseam,
but playing the blame game (politics, anyone?) won't solve the problem.
I don't have an easy answer for this one.
Other than the fact that we are exactly now creating our own archaeological future, and possibly extinction, of not only H.s., but a hell of a lot of the world and its species (which absolutely do not deserve extinction by homo sap fiat), as we speak.
Anyone want to bell the cat?
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Hi john. What you have been describing is Malthusian law. We, as a species are rushing forward, blindly, toward the same end as the yeast cells that Malthus observed.
I am a member of the Cato Insitute, a non-political think tank that does a lot of economic studies. Bless their heart, there's a lot of those folks that believe we can prove Malthus wrong. I don't know john, I just don't know.
Stephen Hawking states that the only way to ensure the survivability of mankind is to colonize other planets. A very brilliant man, Hawking is not acting like Pollyanna.
I am a member of the Cato Insitute, a non-political think tank that does a lot of economic studies. Bless their heart, there's a lot of those folks that believe we can prove Malthus wrong. I don't know john, I just don't know.
Stephen Hawking states that the only way to ensure the survivability of mankind is to colonize other planets. A very brilliant man, Hawking is not acting like Pollyanna.
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Minimalist
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My own definition of carrying capacity is " the level of population, combined with the level of consumption of natural resources, which does not degrade either the biological health of the Earth or the quality of life for other species."
And I like that definition, John, but with the proviso that different nations have different capacities. I live in the Western US and there is so much empty space out here that it can take your breath away. That is not true back East but still, compared to Bangla Desh it is the wide open spaces.
Bangla Desh is a great example. When it rains 3/4 of the country ends up standing on a sand bar. Global warming on even a modest scale will cause a human catastrophe that certainly India is in no position to deal with.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
Minimalist wrote:My own definition of carrying capacity is " the level of population, combined with the level of consumption of natural resources, which does not degrade either the biological health of the Earth or the quality of life for other species."
And I like that definition, John, but with the proviso that different nations have different capacities. I live in the Western US and there is so much empty space out here that it can take your breath away. That is not true back East but still, compared to Bangla Desh it is the wide open spaces.
Bangla Desh is a great example. When it rains 3/4 of the country ends up standing on a sand bar. Global warming on even a modest scale will cause a human catastrophe that certainly India is in no position to deal with.
I disagree.
Different ecosystems have different capacities, not different Nations.
A recurring problem, historically , is imposing a nationalistic identity/economy over the top of environmental capacity.
This to include "war and taxes."
I live in the Pacific NW.
Tell me where all the timber and the salmon went.
They went "offshore." Export. For profit.
Somebody made a really huge amount of money.
What the Pacific NW presently has:
Very littlle timber, almost no fish.
An environment degraded to the point of meaninglessness, except that Microsoft and Boeing are picking up the slack, in a cash sense.
Doesn't mean shit to a tree, or a salmon.........
There are those who will tell you that the "economy" drives the world. They would like you to think that.
The world drives the world.
We are the sorcerer's apprentice, who
Unfortunately,
Picked the wrong sorcerer.
john
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
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Minimalist
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I'll take the Pacific NW's long term survivability over Bangla Desh. We have the resources, as you point out, to diversify. They don't.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
I dont claim that China bankrupting the US would be wise. Their government fucks up too. They have abused their environment even worse. They have stabilized their population, but like us, are discovering they are raising a generation of spoiled brats who may not listen to reason as they take over.
It is too bad that archeology has not allocated the resources to reconstruct the Chalcolithic cultures of SE Europe, who lived *sustainably* on the same land for 4000 years so as to show how it can be done.
Altho, male egos being what they are, understandable. And China will be in deep shit if the US agribusiness goes down with the rest of the economy before they get the Three Gorges Irrigation system working. Global Warming has really clobbered them with hurricanes also.
Like I say, Damn Yankees are, and always have been, lucky.There are ways to handle Iraq, and they mite even figure that out. There may be some others who've read where Machiavelli said that the only time the Italians had any peace, was when the French king threatens to invade.
But even if not, I can see where some in the middle East realize that if the US troops leave, with so many guns behind, they'll ramp up on shooting each other. And all those nations who wont chip in troops to support the US takeover of the oil will be thinking of letting the Chinese do it. Which will cost them a lot more.
Some of us recall, that there was a time when a Chinese general stood on the shores of the Caspian. And now the logistics to put boots on the ground are not nearly what they were then, and besides, China has a lot more boots. To kick ass with.
Will the American fundies mind if the Godless Commies kick ass on the Moslems? tsk. tsk. There's lotta ways to play the Great Game. With American aircover, Chinese troops could be walking the streets of Tehran in a week. Maybe Hillary can figure it out if Bush cant.
It is too bad that archeology has not allocated the resources to reconstruct the Chalcolithic cultures of SE Europe, who lived *sustainably* on the same land for 4000 years so as to show how it can be done.
Altho, male egos being what they are, understandable. And China will be in deep shit if the US agribusiness goes down with the rest of the economy before they get the Three Gorges Irrigation system working. Global Warming has really clobbered them with hurricanes also.
Like I say, Damn Yankees are, and always have been, lucky.There are ways to handle Iraq, and they mite even figure that out. There may be some others who've read where Machiavelli said that the only time the Italians had any peace, was when the French king threatens to invade.
But even if not, I can see where some in the middle East realize that if the US troops leave, with so many guns behind, they'll ramp up on shooting each other. And all those nations who wont chip in troops to support the US takeover of the oil will be thinking of letting the Chinese do it. Which will cost them a lot more.
Some of us recall, that there was a time when a Chinese general stood on the shores of the Caspian. And now the logistics to put boots on the ground are not nearly what they were then, and besides, China has a lot more boots. To kick ass with.
Will the American fundies mind if the Godless Commies kick ass on the Moslems? tsk. tsk. There's lotta ways to play the Great Game. With American aircover, Chinese troops could be walking the streets of Tehran in a week. Maybe Hillary can figure it out if Bush cant.
Any god watching me hasta be bored, and needs to get a life.
Uhuh......Minimalist wrote:I'll take the Pacific NW's long term survivability over Bangla Desh. We have the resources, as you point out, to diversify. They don't.
Is outsourcing really diversity? Or just another environmental Ponzi scheme?
Like the Hallstatt culture (based on mountains of salt) and, for another example, the Hanseatic League (transportation), "Microsquish and Boing" are very very good at co-opting the efforts of a lot of people who are hungry for work, and raking impressive profits off the top.
Boing recently re-headquartered in Chicago, Illinois, so is no longer a Washington state corporation. Do you really thing billg would hesitate for a second to move Microsquish's empire to another state or country if it guaranteed him another few billion a year?
My point is that corporations, today, do not depend on either knowledge of, or loyalty to a particular biological space/place.
They are into maximizing short term profitability, which means using/abusing the cheapest sources of either raw materials or labor. From anywhere. Thus, for example, we have an out of control negative balance of trade with mainland China. Now, you know the "merchant princes" in China are rolling in dough (while the 'oi polloi make pennies on the day), and the Walmart execs are cutting a fat hog (care to guess what a Walmart checker makes, or whether they have health insurance?).
The beat goes on.
And despite the glossy fullcolor ads, their contribution to any kind of material effort to slow down global destruction of the environment is -
to be polite - a complete sarcasm.
Don't get me wrong, they are unbelievably, incredibly committed to being "green" companies.
The 'green" being profit.
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
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Minimalist
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Agreed but it has nothing to do with being green....it has to do with corporations being scumbags.My point is that corporations, today, do not depend on either knowledge of, or loyalty to a particular biological space/place.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
This is a long way from archeology, but.....
Corporate “greed” works!
But it is not neat and tidy.
Boeing headquarters may be in Chicago, but where are all the mfg jobs? Seattle and Wichita, just like always.
Which is worth more to the local economy, thousands of union line workers or some suits and secretaries?
Can Bill G pick up and move? Sure. And if he did, would most of his employees follow him. Sure. So what happens? One area loses and another gains. Zero sum game.
(And why is MS in Seattle anyway? Isn’t Bill G a Boston area drop out? Plenty of local talent walking the streets around there! Certainly more than in Seattle at the time.)
But why would a corporation do anything? Only to make or save money. Otherwise keep it the same. All to their benefit of course . But to yours also. (Oh, you don’t own MS or Boeing stock? Want to bet your 401k or pension fund does?)
If it was to be neat and tidy Marx and Lenin and Stalin would have been right and we would all be living the good life under a “neat and tidy and efficient” set of rules.
But no exceptions to the rules allowed! “You can’t plant those tomatoes alongside your house. It isn’t efficient! We think we can do better with a 1000 acre field!”
You want that?
I just bought a new (to me) car. Why? Because the old one was blue and when my wife was driving it that was OK. But I don’t like blue! When she got another car and I wrecked mine, I inherited the blue one. Ugh! So, I bought a green car. Nothing wrong with the blue one. It runs fine. Why did I do it?
Because I can!
Is this “efficient”?
Not in the least.
Will there be economic benefits? You bet! The guy that sold me the green car benefits. The guy that buys my blue car will benefit, because I will sell it for less than it is worth, just to get it out of my driveway. And I benefit, because now I have something I like and will therefore take better care of.
So the carwash guy benefits, the oil change guy benefits, etc, etc all the way down the line.
(Why do I fell like a mavick econ prof?)
Corporate “greed” works!
But it is not neat and tidy.
Boeing headquarters may be in Chicago, but where are all the mfg jobs? Seattle and Wichita, just like always.
Which is worth more to the local economy, thousands of union line workers or some suits and secretaries?
Can Bill G pick up and move? Sure. And if he did, would most of his employees follow him. Sure. So what happens? One area loses and another gains. Zero sum game.
(And why is MS in Seattle anyway? Isn’t Bill G a Boston area drop out? Plenty of local talent walking the streets around there! Certainly more than in Seattle at the time.)
But why would a corporation do anything? Only to make or save money. Otherwise keep it the same. All to their benefit of course . But to yours also. (Oh, you don’t own MS or Boeing stock? Want to bet your 401k or pension fund does?)
If it was to be neat and tidy Marx and Lenin and Stalin would have been right and we would all be living the good life under a “neat and tidy and efficient” set of rules.
But no exceptions to the rules allowed! “You can’t plant those tomatoes alongside your house. It isn’t efficient! We think we can do better with a 1000 acre field!”
You want that?
I just bought a new (to me) car. Why? Because the old one was blue and when my wife was driving it that was OK. But I don’t like blue! When she got another car and I wrecked mine, I inherited the blue one. Ugh! So, I bought a green car. Nothing wrong with the blue one. It runs fine. Why did I do it?
Because I can!
Is this “efficient”?
Not in the least.
Will there be economic benefits? You bet! The guy that sold me the green car benefits. The guy that buys my blue car will benefit, because I will sell it for less than it is worth, just to get it out of my driveway. And I benefit, because now I have something I like and will therefore take better care of.
So the carwash guy benefits, the oil change guy benefits, etc, etc all the way down the line.
(Why do I fell like a mavick econ prof?)
Yep Kb, that's a market economy (Capitalism) for you. On the other hand you get the Commie system, the Mat Tree factory. The factory is surounded by acres of mat trees, and as they mature they are cut down and shredded into long fibres that are then woven into large mats that are then placed around the base of the trees to protect the roots from frost!
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt