Neanderthal News

[Digit]

So the story goes KB, I only hope the natives were better at it than me though.

[Digit]

What you say about the spear and javelin KB is quite correct, and once again the expert carry much of the blame. I recently watched a TV programme where it was stated that HSN used a 'thrusting spear' which as you point by definition is what a spear is for. They went on to state that HSN had no choice as his arm bones and joints would not permit of throwing. He must have been the only primate who couldn't!

[Sam Salmon]

They went on to state that HSN had no choice as his arm bones and joints would not permit of throwing. He must have been the only primate who couldn't!

Anyone who's ever stood within range of bad tempered moneys knows that truth of that!
Incoming!!!!!

[Digit]

Incoming!!!!!

[fossiltrader]

Beagle would make my dreams come true were erectus ever shown to have speech.As for the spear many neanderthal sites in France i believe were located near river crossings reindeer crossed the rivers at these points well im fairly sure it was reindeer and it was suggested neanderthals under arm thrust would be better suited to spearing an animail at the moment it climbed up a river bank?
Also the injuries noted to neanderthal remains could be so it is suggested hunting injuries from being kicked etc by large animals because they had to get in close to thrust the spear for the kill.
The chest developement of neanderthal is also it is suggested not of a type i.e shape or structure likely to help in the developement of speech?
To my knowledge though i may be wrong only one neanderthal burial as been discovered out side a cave?The cave burials it being shown where probably merely natural infill and in fact the outside burial was also shown to be due to natural landfill i know there many people saying otherwise but too my best knowledge no burials have been so far proven to be on purpose? P.S My own personal theory is that if neanderthal was a specialised hunter in close and thrust it likely this is why he no longer around but that just my idea cheers Terry

[Beagle]

Why does it matter that they buried their dead in a cave or not? The fact that they preferred caves for burial is highly significant. What do you think it may mean?

http://www.wm.edu/news/?id=7362

“When Neanderthals and Homo sapiens are coexisting in the world, they both are involved in burial of the dead, but the Neanderthals—just as much as our own species—are doing this with apparent emotion,” King said. “There is evidence of grave goods, grave markers, ceremonies at the grave site. This has never happened before; it’s unprecedented in prehistory. You just don’t see it among australopithecines or early Homo species.”

King says that the evidence of the care that went into Neanderthal burial sites very likely represent a spiritual component of Neanderthal life. Her William and Mary undergraduates, she says, often challenge her on the point.

“My students ask me some very good questions,” she said. “They ask, ‘Couldn’t it just be hygienic? Couldn’t it be to avoid predators?’” She answers, “You need a grave for that, but you don’t need bones arranged very carefully in the grave, a fire over the grave, marked antlers on top of the grave.”

Sorry I don't have more time at the moment. Between babysitting my 2 yr. old grandson and football I'm pretty busy.

I'll get to the rest of your post though.

[Forum Monk]

I have read the same things as you, Terry, about neanderthals injuries being consistent with a hunting style being close to large animals. While injured deer can be quite dangerous, imagine running up to a wounded rhino. Makes one think maybe they weren't too intelligent.

[fossiltrader]

Sorry beagle should have been clearer in my explanation.The significance of caves is simply that all the cave burials have been shown to be merely were they died ,because there is fall from the roofs many bodies were buried but not deliberately the reason the one out door burial was significant was because it may have shown deliberate burial no roof fall if you out side.However when it was investigated it actually showed the out door burial was a body in a fold in the ground which naturaly filled in so in fact didnt show actual deliberate burial at all.
Of course that also isnt talking at all about the remains found that had been gnawed and showed signs of meat removal from the bones by blade hence as far as i know neanderthal was eating his dead sometimes it like the neanderthal art work and the flute that was found none so far has stood up to examination .
Me personally im deeply into my erectus research i really think that the chap with many answers cheers Terry.

[fossiltrader]

Dont know about you monk but running up to a rhino and saying excuse me why i prod you with my pointy stick sounds to me like a case of racial suicide lol.

[daybrown]

The Neanderthal buried at Shanidar had seven important medicinal herbs with him.

"The Forest People", an anthro classic on the Mbuti pygmie reports on how a hunter merely stabbed an elephant in the ass then climbed a tree. After the elephant got over his rage, it left, & he followed. 5 days later the Elephant fell over dead from blood poisoning.

You dont have to kill a rhino either, just be there when it dies. soon as any spear finishes off an animal with an active streptococcus infection, that weapon becomes innoculated, and in time all the blades and points are.

[Beagle]

Sorry beagle should have been clearer in my explanation.The significance of caves is simply that all the cave burials have been shown to be merely were they died ,because there is fall from the roofs many bodies were buried but not deliberately the reason the one out door burial was significant was because it may have shown deliberate burial no roof fall if you out side.However when it was investigated it actually showed the out door burial was a body in a fold in the ground which naturaly filled in so in fact didnt show actual deliberate burial at all.
Of course that also isnt talking at all about the remains found that had been gnawed and showed signs of meat removal from the bones by blade hence as far as i know neanderthal was eating his dead sometimes it like the neanderthal art work and the flute that was found none so far has stood up to examination .
Me personally im deeply into my erectus research i really think that the chap with many answers cheers Terry.

Terry, what you are saying about rockfall is over 30 years old. Where in the world are you getting your information?

There was one skeleton, Shanidar 1, that was buried by rockfall. The famous burial that DB speaks about above is Shanidar 4. Scientists of many disciplines have scoured these caves for many years now, and these questions have been answered. Neanderthals preferred to bury their dead in caves. They exhibited caring behavior toward their dead. Neanderthals that died out in the open were probably alone for some reason and were not interred.

HN engaged in cannabalism on a couple of occasions documented so far. As of now, the thinking is that he consumed the dead during periods of starvation, probably in the winter. If that is the case, then it's no different than what was done in the 1970's by airplane crash survivors in the Andes. But we don't know enough about that right now.

The fact that HN had a barrel chest that flared outward toward the bottom was a cold weather adaptation. He could throw his javelin just fine. Mother Nature just isn't that stupid. Physical anthropologists have retired that myth.

A pretty high incidence of orthopedic injuries have been documented on these skeletons. Outside of hunting mainly mastodon for food, we still don't know a lot about his lifestyle. But it was obviously an active one. Conditions permitting, he liked to live outdoors in wooden huts in Europe, while on the steppes of the former USSR he built huts of mastodon tusks and mastodon hide. The image of a half-clad human running through the snow with a crooked spear is silly. He was such a successful hunter that he had all the furs he needed to make clothes to cover his entire body. It's fortunate that there are scientists without an agenda.

Terry, if you're getting information off the internet be sure it's recently dated and is a credible source. Good luck in your H. Erectus search. I agree that a lot of answers rest with him.

[NAeuroMUT]

Folks, I beg your collective pardons here. I am a pure layman on this subject, so please bare with me.

To summarize what I understand of this thread thus far. The argument regarding the advancement (or lack there of) of HN. If I am not mistaken, in this thread it has been argued that HN could not throw a spear due bone structure. I must ask, have you ever seen Bret Saberhagen pitch?
Here’s a couple of other points. Why has it been argued about limited range of one particular specie over another? I think we all have heard about the grass on the other side. What makes us think that our predecessors didn’t have the same wonder lust as we have? With that being said; Say that I am a young HN, HE, or CM. Lets say that I just do not get off on living in a cave, hut, or tree (or for any of a number other reasons). I want to see what things look like beyond the next hill, and the next, and the next until I run out of hills and start hitting mountains, lakes or oceans. Let’s say for a moment, I run into a few other folks along the way.
Let’s not forget that there were not to many mirrors back then. The base senses would be the determing factor that would tell them; “HEY, that dude/chick isn’t the same as we are. But hey!, look at that nice *insert animal of chouce here* he/she brought us.
If said wonderer has a little charisma, it wouldn’t matter either. Especially if he/she was so self sufficient to have survived such a journey. This person would have made offerings. He/she would have been welcome as a hunter, or a person with enough knowledge to benefit the group. This person would also provide an attractive alternative for mating. The new kid on the block is always popular at least until the new car smell wears off.
Why, I must ask, were they so different from us that the same social rules do not apply?

[Digit]

A number of points here, one reason for buring their dead in caves, assuming that they were living in the cave at that time of course, would be to keep your family with you. It is not unknown.
As regards the chest of HSN, assuming that the size of the chest cavity meant a large pair of lungs and a diaphram to match, HSN would have loud and a Tenor.

[Beagle]

G'morning Digit (morning to me anyway),

Everything you just said is on the hypothetical front burner. That is what most folks who study HN believe.

And...all the greatest tenors come from Europe.

[Digit]

And good morning to you my friend. Hypothetical? Absolutely! Till we find a living breathing HSN I'm rather afraid it must stay that way.