Is the Jesus story an astrological allegory?

[Ishtar]

FM, I think this is the only other point you seriously contested:

From Zeitgeist:

In the Old Testament, when Moses comes down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments, he is very upset to see his people worshiping a golden bull calf. In fact, he shattered the stone tablets and instructed his people to kill each other in order to purify themselves.

Most Biblical scholars would attribute this anger to the fact that the Israelites were worshiping a false idol, or something to that effect. The reality is that the golden bull is Taurus the Bull, and Moses represents the new Age of Aries the Ram. This is why Jews even today still blow the Ram's horn. Moses represents the new Age of Aries, and upon the new age, everyone must shed the old age. Other deities mark these transitions as well, a pre-Christian god who kills the bull, in the same symbology.

None of this has attesting evidence as the earliest hebrew manuscripts predate greek astrology.

Yes but not Vedic, and definitely not Babylonian. Remember, much of the OT was put together when the Jews were in Babylon. People tend to forget that.

[Forum Monk]

Correct. But the assyrian/babylonians did not have the concept of astrological ages as their astronomy had not progressed greatly prior to the 8th century BC. And there is no evidence they had learned it from the Vedic astronomers. So if we allow that the hebrews in were in captivity in Assyria and the greeks had not discovered precession, it is safe to assume, imo, that the hebrews had no concept of astrological ages as well.

There is a great tendency these days to attribute precession knowledge to the ancients but there is absolutely no direct evidence it was known, so the pseudo-science authors point to numerology to explain it. I don't want to get into that muck.

[Ishtar]

I think if you check out that the Vedics knew about the poe, that will give you your answer. Subhash Kak says there was some cross over of knowledge when Alexander invaded India in 327 BC.

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0303001

I know that one of the Greek historians (Appian?) says that Alexander kept the Brahmins imprisoned so that his philosophers could learn from them.

Also, if the Indians knew about poe, it would be difficult to imagine the Babylonians not knowing about it. Are you sure that they didn't - or is it just that you can't attest it?

[Minimalist]

I know you have said many times, Mithras, Horus, etc were not real. But what if they were? What if the gods were distant memories of actual living human beings from an antiquity when there were fewer humans living closer together? Would that explain anything?

That's a stretch. Easier to think of them as stories that were adopted into local cultures and amended to suit local conditions.

[Forum Monk]

I think if you check out that the Vedics knew about the poe, that will give you your answer. Subhash Kak says there was some cross over of knowledge when Alexander invaded India in 327 BC.

I can see I'm going to have to check it out because as I was preparing dinner tonight, I recalled the Vedic astrology was based on a sidereal calendar. Now that may sound like greek (pun intended) to some, but it means precession was undetectible because the zodiac slipped in accordance with respect to the tropical year. I may have this wrong so I need to verify.

After I eat.

[Ishtar]

FM, you might find this helpful with regard to astronomy in the Vedas:

http://www.boloji.com/astro/00341.htm

The most striking feature appears to be identification of the Precession of the Equinoxes, which simply put, alters the position of the star in the sky due to the spinning motion of the Earth, i.e. the celestial north Pole does not point towards the same star after a given period of time due to the wobble of the earth as it spins on its axis...

Due to precession, the vernal equinox moves along the ecliptic by 1° in approximately 72 years. Coincidentally, the number of temples built around Angkor Wat is 72!

The Chatur-yuga 4,320,000 years is related to the precessional cycle, 25,867 years corresponding to a precession of 50.1 arc-seconds per year. This is amazingly close to the normally accepted value of 50.2 arc-seconds for the precessional constant.

[FM - Chatur-yuga - yuga = age.]

[Ishtar]

What do you mean 'eat'? How can you find time to eat?

I can see I'm going to have to check it out because as I was preparing dinner tonight, I recalled the Vedic astrology was based on a sidereal calendar. Now that may sound like greek (pun intended) to some, but it means precession was undetectible because the zodiac slipped in accordance with respect to the tropical year. I may have this wrong so I need to verify.

After I eat.

Yeah, you have got it wrong. Sidereal (Vedic) astrology is the exact opposite of tropical astrology. Tropical astrology doesn't recognise the poe, and tropical astrology is what we have in the West.

Here's a short feature to explain it:

Vedic astrology
(from Jeffrey Armstrong: http://www.creditcardmerchant.com/jeffr ... t0998.html)

Returning to our discussion about the Precession of the Equinoxes, right now we are in the Age of Pisces. The previous age was the Age of Aries (2160 years) and before that the Age of Taurus (2160 years).

In the Age of Taurus, whoever was born on March 21st had Sun in Taurus. In the Age of Aries anyone born on March 21st had the Sun in Aries. And right now in the Age of Pisces, anyone born on March 21st has Sun in Pisces.

So, why is it that the newspaper/Western Astrology says that someone born on March 21st is an Aries, when that has not been true for 1750 years? (Western Astrologers are also called “Tropical” Astrologers, which is how I will refer to them from now on. Those who follow the Precession of Equinoxes and use the Stars are referred to as “Sidereal” Astrologers.)

Imagine you have a wine bottle which had a wine in it called “Aries” 1750 years ago, but now it has a wine called “Pisces.” Would you call the new wine Aries since the bottle used to hold that wine?

Similarly, the first day of Spring used to be in Taurus, then in Aries, but neither of those wines are in the bottle now. The bottle is March 21st and this year the wine in the bottle is Pisces, which means on March 21st 1998 the person born has a Sun in Pisces. They are not an Aries and will not be for another 25,000 years. When the Aquarius Age begins, on March 21st the person born will be … not a Taurus, not an Aries, not a Pisces, but a Sun in Aquarius.

To put it very simply, Tropical Astrologers are currently thinking that the Aries wine is still in the bottle and it is not and has not been for 1750 years.

So maybe this is why you think all astrology is bollox, FM. You maybe only know the Western Tropical kind which actually is bollox because it doesn't take into the precession of the equinoxes and, thus, doesn't freaking work!

[Forum Monk]

That's a stretch. Easier to think of them as stories that were adopted into local cultures and amended to suit local conditions.

I know it was a stretch and as Ishtar points out, some believe it. If I was a country or a culture, I might be persuaded to adopt your gods under two scenarios: you just conquered me and said adopt or die, or we decided through marriage or strategic alliance to worship one anothers gods in order to execute some treaty.

[Forum Monk]

Well I did say that knowing what calendar to apply is very important. The gregorian compensates for precession making it undetectable as the sun always crosses the celestial equator around Mar 21. But...let me check the Vedic astrology. It may take a few hours. Seems logical in my mind if their zodiac is slipping with the sun they are measuring the positions of the "houses" with respect to sun, not the stars as the westerners do. Obviously since the stars aren't moving, but the earth is, the position of the sun changes with respect to the background stars and so precession is detected in a western astrology. hmmmm.

I get back to you.

[Digit]

One of the things about astrology that puzzles me is the fact that it has to be fiddled to take into account the precession of the equinox. But strangely the characters accorded to birth signs seems to to be reasonable accurate in my experience.
I am a Virgoan, and I fit the sterotype exactly, as do other Virgoans that have met, my wife is a Taurus Tauran? who is supposed to be a Virgoan soul mate, we married when I was 29 and we are still married 35 yrs later.
Coincidance?
If so, how were the stereotypes created? Common sense says that people observed certain traits in those born at certain times of the year, though whether that would have anything to do with star signs may well be acedemic.
What of the rest of this forum, do you fit the star sign stereotypes, come on, be honest?

[Ishtar]

Digit, I'm a typical Leo - warm and generous to a tee, but also fierce and proud!

FM, Sidereal or Vedic astrology is also Jyotish astrology and this is Wiki on how it works:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_astrology

[Digit]

One confession down, now the rest of you, let's see how far we can strecth 'conicidence'?

[Minimalist]

you just conquered me and said adopt or die,

You must admit, Monk. That can be a powerful argument!

[Forum Monk]

Ok, I understand it and was partially correct and partially wrong. Vedic and other forms of sidereal astrology are based on the sun and planet positions with respect to fixed points in the constellations. This is in fact the definition of sidereal. A sidereal year equals the amount of time it takes the sun to reach the position twice with respect to a background star. However, western astrology is based on the amount of time it takes the sun to cross the vernal point which is the intersection of the celestial equator and the ecliptic. In other words that time of the year when the sun crosses from say, the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere. That point moves backward through the background stars at 1* per 72 years (approx). Therefore in sidereal astronomy, since the sun is always properly aligned with the stars and only the calendar slips (since we have a solar calendar which is aligned to the vernal crossing) the concept of sun ages has no application. On the otherhand, in western astrology, since the sun position is measured by the vernal point which slips backward, the calender remains in sync, but the vernal points slowly shifts into different signs, thus giving rise to the concept of solar ages.

So from this we can say, even if the Vedic astronomers and astrologers knew of precession (a point I still have not discovered to my satisfaction) is didn't affect their astrology and there was no need for sun ages. So if the hebrew stories are based allegories of astrological sun ages, it must be based on tropical astrology and we have no proof that Assyria had such knowledge in the 8th century BC.

Now if they imprisoned Vedic astronomers to teach them such things, it hasn't turned up in the thousands of artifacts recovered from the Libray of Asshurbanipal. If the evidence is there it would be very significant to reveal.

EDIT: sorry you stated there were Vedic prisoners in the days of Alexander which was 500 years after the Hebrew diasporia. My conclusion is based on the lack of attested evidence.

[Digit]

That can be a powerful argument!

And still widely practiced amongst Islamists, unfortunately Min.