Is the Jesus story an astrological allegory?

[Forum Monk]

The Vedic masters teach that Vedic astronomy was there to serve the astrology, and not the other round. So they had astronomy in 3,000+ BC .....do you take my point?

I guess I take your point. From my understanding, in the beginning, there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology. There was only one study of the stars and planets, etc. The distinction is a modern one. (well let's say reasonably modern),

[Ishtar]

Yes, FM. On your other point, thanks for posting the clarification, but
I wonder if we're going down the wrong track. So what if the tropical, Western Zodiac that it is use today only starts from around 700 BC. Zodiac is a Greek word. It means 'circle of animals', which is what the ring of constellations looks like. And, compared to the Indians and the Sumerians, it seems as if the Greeks were pretty late coming to this sort of thing anyway.

That the Sumerians and Indians (Vedic times), and possibly the Chinese, practised astrology much earlier than that is blindingly obvious from any number of sources - the Rig-veda talks about the nakshatras (constellations), and also the link you provided recently showed Sumerian seals of around 3,000 BC with seven of the constellations, including the Fixed Signs. In fact, it was notable that every one of those artifacts contained the Fixed Signs.

So for the purposes of this discussion, that the West didn't get the Greek Zodiac until 700 BC doesn't take away from the astrotheists' case. Admittedly, Moses has been dated earlier, but Job (which does have the Zodiac) has been dated even earlier than Moses.

So the Christians can't have it both ways. Either the dating for Job is correct (2150 BC according to Kennedy), meaning the West had the Zodiac in 2150 BC, at least. Or the dating for Job is wildly too early and, in fact, judging by the latest research, is probably nearer to 700 BC - and bingo! There you have it.

We can't even really ask the question: "But did they have the Zodiac at the time of Moses?'" because Moses almost certainly never existed and there is no evidence, or even likelihood, of the Hebrews being in Egypt and Exodus out.

So we're looking for when it was written. That is considered by all to be after Job. And Job has the Zodiac.

QED

[Forum Monk]

What do you consider wester as for my Babylonian is eastern.

I errored when I said western was 700 bC, in reviewing my sources western would have been in the common era while sidereal is 700BC. This not set a date on when astrology was first practiced. Only when the currently established divisions were agreed and a zero point was set. From this time, the march of precession becomes obvious. In fact, it wasn't long afterward (a few hundred years) that Hipparchus measured precession.

[Ishtar]

I've always thought of the Babylonians as in the West - but actually, they're in what's known as the Middle East. In fact, they're all in the Middle East, apart from Greece. It's just that tropical astrology is also known as Western astrology and that's what they practised in the Middle East.

Ah...but is it? Hmmmm...that's a thought, Hold on FM. Lightbulb going off in head.....

Do you think the Hebrews of Job (descended from Canaanites, descended from Sumero/Akkad) were actually practising sidereal astrology...and it was nothing to do with the flaming Greeks? They don't after all, use the Greek word of Zodiac in Job. They call it a Mazaroth. So maybe that's worth investigating.

And sorry, I can see you typed that last post in a hurry. Did you say your dates for sidereal are 700 BC and for tropical (Western) is later?

[Beagle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa

By the 5th millennium BC these peoples had fashioned one of the world's earliest known archeoastronomical device (roughly contemporary to the Goseck circle in Germany), about 1000 years older than but comparable to Stonehenge[2] (see sketch at right). Research suggests that it may have been a prehistoric calendar which accurately marks the summer solstice.[3]

The research done by the astrophysicist Thomas G. Brophy suggests that these monoliths might tell much more. The calendar circle itself is made up of one doorway that runs north-south, a second that runs northeast-southwest marking the summer solstice, and six center stones. Brophy's theory proposes first that three of the center stones match the belt of Orion at its minimum tilt and the other three match the shoulder and head stars of Orion at their maximum tilt. This cycle repeats approximately every 25,000 years, following the precession of the equinoxes. The last minimum of Orion's belt occurred between 6400 BC and 4900 BC, matching the radio-carbon dating of campfires around the circle.[5]

The stone circle at Nabta Playa is built precisely on what was then the Tropic of Cancer, the sun's furthest North point of travel that is, today, about 23 degrees 40 minutes N[citation needed]. Such a site would interest the wise men of the megalithic era and some would travel many days to erect such a site and then study there[citation needed].

Another stone megalithic structure exists which consists of a central radial stone and several other stones in the distance. In interpreting this Brophy found that the lines made to these stones from the radial stone match the spots in the sky where the various stars marked by the center stones in the calendar circle at the time they rose as the vernal equinox heliacal rising. In analyzing the varying distances, mulling through assumptions such as that they represented the brightness of the stars, he inadvertently found that they matched the distance of the stars from Earth on a scale of 1 meter = .799 light years within the margin of error for astronomical distances calculated today. But, as long as there is no technique accessible to Neolithic people known, with which they could have measured the distances to stars, this correlation seems to be nothing more than chance coincidence [6].

There seems to have been some archaeoastronomy being done around 6,000 BC at Nabta Playa.

[Forum Monk]

And sorry, I can see you typed that last post in a hurry. Did you say your dates for sidereal are 700 BC and for tropical (Western) is later?

Sorry. Didn't realize it appeared so muddled. I am now saying the western FPOA was set in approx 200CE. (common era)

The eastern sidereal FPOA was established in 700BCE. (before common era)

When I first looked at Fagan I didn't realize he was a "specialist" on sidereal astrology. I assumed western but upon further review he seems more aligned with the Vedic tradition.

[Ishtar]

Guys - I think this gives us many of the answers we've been looking for, on the history of astrology and whether the Hebrews learned it earlier from the Sumerians or later from the Greeks.

It says the earliest known Mesopotamian astrological document is dated to c 1600 BC and the earliest known star catalogue of 687 BC.

It's from Nick Campion who has a very good name in astrology, and I'm sorry it's so long, but we do need most of it and I have cut out quite a bit:

http://www.nickcampion.com/nc/history/mesopotamia.htm

Mesopotamia ... this particular civilisation is of great importance to us for it spawned the Semitic culture of Palestine, and hence is responsible for the Judeao-Christian tradition.... It is almost 2,000 years since astrologers invented natal horoscopes and house systems, yet astrology was nearly 2,000 years old when these techniques were first used.

The most famous astrologer of these times was the prophet Daniel who served first the Babylonian Emperor Nebuchadnezzar and then the Persian conqueror Cyrus in around 570 - 530 B.C. This, at any rate, is the claim made by the Biblical Book of Daniel around 150 B.C. When historians talk loosely of Mesopotamian civilisation they are often in fact referring to the Assyrian era which commenced around 1,000 B.C., and it is not always possible to distinguish between the cosmologies of the different eras. However we know that early Mesopotamian cosmology was essentially that described in the book of Genesis chapter 1, verses 6 - 10. In this the entire universe was contained between two sheets of water, below and above the Earth. The water above the Earth was supported by a great dome across which trooped the planets and the stars on their daily and annual journeys....

The worship of planetary deities took on its major form after about 2,000 B.C. with the worship of Sin (The Moon), Shamash (the Sun), Ishtar (Venus), Nergal (Mars), Marduk (Jupiter), and Ninurta (Saturn). These names changed at different times, and have come down to us in various forms; for example Ninurta is sometimes Ninib.

It is interesting to note that, before 2,000 B.C., the semitic Akkadians, who came from the north of Mesopotamia, regarded the Moon and Venus as male and the Sun as female.

...the earliest known astrological text we have is dated before 1600 B.C. The text concerned is the so-called Venus Tablet Of Amisaduqa, written during the reign of King Amisaduqa of Babylon between 1646 and 1626 B.C.

“In month XI, 15th day, Venus disappeared in the west. Three days it stayed away, then on the 18th day it became visible in the east. Springs will open and Adad will bring his rain and Ea his floods. Messages of reconciliation will be sent from King to King.”

Already it will be seen that Venus has acquired its traditional benefic attributions. The Venus Tablet forms part of a series of omen tablets known as the Enuma Anu Enlil (’When the gods Anu and Enlil...’) which was preserved in the library of the Assyrian King Ashurbanipal (669 - 626 B.C.).

The Enuma Anu Enlil is a collection of omens compiled between 1600 and 1,000 B.C. and is representative of the development of astrology over that period. The astrology contained in the tablets is based on the rising and setting of planets and is exclusively mundane, that is, concerned with making predictions for the entire country, and the King, who was regarded as the personification of the country.

It seems that astrology was already spreading beyond the limits of the Mesopotamian river valley, for traces of the Enuma Anu Enlil have been found in Eastern Turkey and dated to before 1360 B.C.

The library of Ashurbanipal also contained the first known star catalogue, the Mul Apin, (c 687 B.C.) a record of Assyrian attempts to chart the sky. One of the most important dates of this period was 747 B.C., known as the Era of Nabonassar, after the Assyrian king who reigned at the time. Tradition states that this was the date from which detailed astronomical records were kept, but it is not known how accurate this belief is. It is, however, possible that some major codification of astronomy and astrology did take place around this time.

Soon after 600 B.C. the Greeks began to study astronomy, and the Hellenistic and Mesopotamian worlds started the gradual process of cultural mixing which was to reach its climax with the conquests of Alexander the Great some 300 years later. Somewhere between 569 and 510 B.C. Pythagoras studied at Babylon and it is possible that his example was followed by other Greek scholars. [Note from Ishtar: Pythagorus also studied with the Rabbis, the Egyptians and the Indian Brahmins.]

Following the Persian invasion of Babylon in 538 B.C. tremendous developments took place in astrology with the first use of astrological signs rather than constellations, around 432 B.C., and the first individual horoscope in 409 B.C. It is important to remember that because historical evidence is often confusing not all historians agree on these precise dates.

Following the invasion of Alexander the Great (331 B.C.) the distinction between Greek and Mesopotamian culture becomes blurred. One result of this blurring is that it is not possible always to tell what advances were due to the Greeks, what to the Mesopotamians and what to the interaction of the two. Perhaps the most important result was that the Babylonian ‘sexagesimal’ system became widespread, and as applied to the recording of time, this gave birth to the twelve hour day. Although this was later replaced by the Egyptian twenty-four hour day, 20th century time is still based on the division of the hour into 60 minutes and the minute into 60 seconds.

We know remarkably little about the rapid development that took place in astrology at this time, but it is possible to pick out some important dates. These act as sign-posts through one of astrology’s obscure periods.

There was a rapid increase in the use of natal astrology and a slow development of the concept of the rising sign and the consequence of that, the houses. The earliest known planetary ephemeris dates from c 308 B.C., while the first known use of zodiacal degrees dates from 263 B. C. The last horoscope written in the ancient cuneiform script dates from 68 B.C., and the first known Greek horoscope dates from 61 B.C., although other evidence suggests that the Greeks cast horoscopes sometime before this date. This chart was not in fact a nativity but an event chart, being cast on the orders of the Greek ruler, Antiochus I of Commagene. Antiochus had the chart hewn in the cliff face at the summit of the Nimrud Dagh, no doubt as a sign to the gods and whoever else cared to look, that his reign was destined to be a glorious one. The first recorded natal chart to make use of an ascendant dates to from 4 B.C., appropriately enough a mere four years after the Saturn-Jupiter conjunction of 7 B.C. which saw the probable birth of Christ.

As far as we know astrology in its earliest days was the preserve of the baru priests, who were in charge of divination, and its purpose was to provide an additional source of advice for the king. By the time of the spread of Hellenistic (Greek) culture in the final centuries before Christ, astrology had become democratised and secularised. The practitioners were no longer necessarily priests, but were scholars and philosophers casting charts not for kings but for anybody with the interest, and presumably the money, to pay.

I'm surprised that Nick hasn't mentioned the Sumerian seals showing the Fixed Signs (earliest c 3,000 BC) but perhaps he wrote this article before they were discovered.

[Ishtar]

The eastern sidereal FPOA was established in 700BCE. (before common era)

FM

I'm now veering towards Hebrew astrology being sidereal....as it appears to be a direct descendent of the Sumerian. Your date of 700 BC for the First Point of Aries would also bring it much more in line with the date now thought to be when much of the OT was written.

On a mythological level, it could also provide an interpretation of the Moses story with the killing of the Golden Calf (death of Taurus) leading to the Age of Aries and Aaron and Aaronite priests.

In other words, we're in Aries (the Ram) now and the Aaronite priests rule. So bring your Lambs to their slaughter.

What do you think?

[Ishtar]

There seems to have been some archaeoastronomy being done around 6,000 BC at Nabta Playa.

Thanks for this, Beags. I wasn't going to bring it up. I thought I'd get accused - as I have been already in this thread - of ideas more suited to GHMB!

Personally, I think it's bloody interesting!

[kbs2244]

In spite of myself, I am getting drawn into this.

I just picked up the reference to Job and the Astrological references in that OT book.
No argument that they are there.

My point is that there is no reference to Job (or Jethro) being a Hebrew. That mistake comes from the assumption that only the Hebrews worshiped “Jehovah”
Job is called “The greatest of the Orientals.” There is no mention of his linage.
There is no claim of his being, in any way, related to Abraham who is the commonly accepted “Father of the Hebrews.”

All we know about Jethro is that he was the father in law of Moses.
Again, no mention of his linage.
That he was a worshiper of Jehovah, as we presume Moses was, may explain why Moses went east into the desert, and the hard life of a sheppard, instead of west to the Libyans.
The Libyans we can presume, would welcome, and provide an easy life for, an Egyptian Royal Family deserter.
The fact that Jethro is called a “Priest”, without mentioning the God he was a priest of, may be why he is accepted without question later on in Exodus.

So, assuming that Moses wrote both the Pentateuch and the book of Job, admittedly a big assumption for some of you, shows that, just because the Hebrews knew about the Zodiac, does not mean they officially believed in it.

References to the Zodiac in “Inspired Scripture” are in the same class as references to place names that did not exist at the time of the story, but were well known at the time of the story telling.

So, for dating purposes, I think you have to consider the time of the writing, not the time of the story.

BTW: this is all based strictly from a careful reading of the OT.
I do not know of any other place where Job or Jethro are mentioned.

[Forum Monk]

My point is that there is no reference to Job (or Jethro) being a Hebrew. That mistake comes from the assumption that only the Hebrews worshiped “Jehovah”
Job is called “The greatest of the Orientals.” There is no mention of his linage.
...
So, assuming that Moses wrote both the Pentateuch and the book of Job, admittedly a big assumption for some of you, shows that, just because the Hebrews knew about the Zodiac, does not mean they officially believed in it.

References to the Zodiac in “Inspired Scripture” are in the same class as references to place names that did not exist at the time of the story, but were well known at the time of the story telling.

You make a good point about Job and Jethro (did we talk about him so much?), KB.

I do not believe the hebrews practiced astrology in a sanctioned capacity. It is practically implicitly forbidden as the early writing condemn those who do. But is is reasonable to believe that it was nevertheless followed by the common individuals who were always very reluctant to give up their long held traditions and beliefs. Seems they loved to hedge their bets with other household idols. This, inspite of very explicit prohibition and condemnation to those who kept such things.

[Minimalist]

http://www2.bc.edu/~principb/page4on4.html

The renowned Assyriologist and Sumerologist Samuel Noah Kramer in his 1959 book History Begins at Sumer: Thirty-Nine "Firsts" in Recorded History (1956) provides a translation of a Sumerian text that evinces a remarkable parallel with the Biblical story of Job. The obvious inference to draw is that the Hebrew version is in some way derived from a Sumerian predecessor.

[Minimalist]

Shit. I'm starting to feel like Marduk with all the Sumerian b.s.

[Forum Monk]

In other words, we're in Aries (the Ram) now and the Aaronite priests rule. So bring your Lambs to their slaughter.

What do you think?

When the age shifted to pisces, why didn't the followers begin sacrificing fish?

Beags. I wasn't going to bring it up. I thought I'd get accused - as I have been already in this thread - of ideas more suited to GHMB!

Who would do such a thing?

Interesting, yes. But I have said it before, I am an archaeo-astrono-skeptic. Bears investigation imo, but Ishtar is keeping me busy enough for now. Plus I'm still working out a precession presentation.

[john]

John

That’s a really interesting post – now that I understand it!

Sun wheels can also be known as sun crosses, and have been found as early as the Neolithic. I think these would be the earliest attested proof that early man was an astronomer - along with a botanist, a meteorologist, a biologist, a geographer, a geologist, a mathematician ....and probably so much more.

Where we pay a few select people to do something, ancient man had to do it all himself – and then we say that they were ignorant savages! Yet if they really had been ignorant savages, they wouldn’t have survived and we wouldn’t be here to call them ‘ ignorant savages’.

But I want to add just one more word to the Boats, Hematite mantra. I want to say Boats, Hematite, Television. Because Neolithic man also had television – but not to watch The Simpsons!

The Greek ‘tele’ means ‘afar, at a distance’. Put that with ‘vision’, and the rest is obvious. An African shaman, say, (although he almost certainly wasn’t called that) would journey into another dimension and meet there with a shaman from India who had also journeyed into this extra dimension in the same way.

At our latest training session, we did the following exercise: I had to journey into a dimension of my choice, and then my partner also had to journey to find me without knowing where I’d gone. I journeyed to a really beautiful place – snow-capped mountains around a glacial blue lake. I stood behind a rock and when I saw her coming on the other side of the lake, I flashed my necklace locket at her, so that she could see where I was. When we both came out of the journey, the last part of the exercise was for her to describe where she’d found me. She described it perfectly.

Currently shamans are coming together from around the world to map these dimensions – which is what these Neolithic guys failed to do, or did but we can’t find it! So eventually, and hopefully soon, there will be some sort of map showing these extra dimensions and how they fit together.

So yes, I think they had Boats. I think they had Hematite. But I also think they had Television.

Boats. Hematite. Television.

Ishtar -

"Sun wheels can also be known as sun crosses, and have been found as early as the Neolithic".

Far earlier than that, m'dear!

Sun cross
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Sun wheels can also be known as sun crosses, and have been found as early as the Neolithic.The sun cross, a cross inside a circle, is one of the oldest and most The Neolithic symbol combining cross and circle is the simplest conceivable representation of the union of opposed polarities in the Western world. Crossed circles scratched on stones have been recovered from Paleolithic cave sites in the Pyrenees. At the most famous megalithic site in Scotland, Callanish, crossing avenues of standing stones extend from a circle. Scratched into stone or painted on pottery, as on that of the Samara culture, the crossed-circle symbol appears in such diverse areas as the Pyrenees in Old Europe, the Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the Iranian plateau, and the cities of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa in the Indus River valley. It may be compared to the yin-yang symbol of the Eastern world.
In the prehistoric religion of Bronze Age Europe, crosses in circles appear frequently on artefacts identified as cult items, for example the "miniature standard" with an amber inlay that shows a cross shape when held against the light, dating to the Nordic Bronze Age, kept in the National Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen.[1] The Bronze Age symbol has also been connected with the spoked chariot wheel, which at the time was four-spoked (compare the Linear B ideogram 243 "wheel" 𐃏), a technological innovation that reached Europe in the mid 2nd millennium BC, and which in the context of the Sun chariot may also have had a "solar" connotation".


Paleolithic cave sites in the Pyrenees, indeed.

The other interesting comment is the comparison to the Yin-Yang glyph. Perhaps this is the original fork in the path between the "Eastern" and "Western" forms of the zodiac.

I agree with "television", almost.

The word I'd use is teleological.

Best example I can think of is, you are out there hunting with bow and arrow. A deer breaks loose from cover and you aim, not at the point the deer is NOW (you will surely miss) but at the point the deer will be in the future. In short, you are aiming your arrow and releasing it into empty space which you predict will be occupied by the deer.

Ground-level description of the cognitive perception of precession, anyone?

The rest is intuitively obvious.


john