Cave 13b - the 164k question

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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john
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Post by john »

Ishtar wrote:I'd like to add an addendum to my previous post on shamanism, as I want to be clear about what I mean when I say: "Shamans say such and such" or "Shamans see such and such..."

I do also see and experience these things myself, but if I say 'I', that might give the impresson that it's just me - and who's to say that I may not just be a bit of a nutter who goes wandering off with the fairies. So I say "shamans say..." which they do anyway. It's all recorded in a book that provides the nearest thing we have to any kind of scientific or empiric evidence for shamans and shamanic technques and that is Mircae Eliade's Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy.

Eliade is dead now, but he was professor of Professor of History of Religions at Harvard and has a chair there named after him. His book on shamanism was first published in France in 1951, and basically it's a compilation of scholarly reports from anthropologists who studied shamans and shamanic cultures from all the over world - from Siberia to South America, and India and Tibet to Australia. Finland and the Eskimos. This was the first time anyone had brought all this information together in one place and published it.

These anthropologists wrote their reports on shamanic practises using the usual objective way of remaining outside the action as a neutral observer. So for a long time, few really understood what actually happened when the shaman went into trance; we had only had their reports of what they say happened, and some of them were very forthcoming on this to these anthropologists.

So the by-word was 'non-involvement' and to study these shamans in the same way we may study rats in cage in a lab ... until another anthropologist, Michael Harner, who was working with a tribe in South America, decided to change all that. He realised that in order to really understand shamanism, he needed to learn to go into trance himself and have a practical inside and subjective experience of where the shaman actually goes.

Harner's first shamanic journey was such a revelation to him that it transformed his life. Over time, he went from being an anthropologist to being a shaman and also founding the American Foundation for Shamanic Studies: http://www.shamanism.org/. He is almost single handedly responsible for the sudden surge in interest in shamanism among us previously non-shamanic folk, and the training of thousands of shamans.

The British branch of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies is called the Sacred Trust, and it is with them that I'm undergong my training. I'm just about to start the second year of their two-year Shamanic Practitioner training course. Here's the link to the Sacred Trust: http://www.sacredtrust.org/

I should add that before I started the course, I already had a very thorough understanding of what shamanism was about from my years of study in India and also back here in the UK. I just didn't have the practical experience.

So I hope that's demystified what can seem to be a very mystifying subject!

Ishtar -

I think I first read Eliade about thirty years ago.......



So, I go out to the woodpile and pick up my axe.

Instead of splitting wood,

I split the wind with my axe.

The wood is nonsensical.

I split the wind.



"Cold mountain is a house

Without beams or walls.

The six doors left and right are open

The hall is blue sky.

The rooms all vacant and vague

The East wall beats on the West wall

At the center nothing".



From "Cold Mountain Poems"

Twenty-four poems by Han-Shan

Translated by Gary Snyder


john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

john wrote:


Ishtar -

I think I first read Eliade about thirty years ago.......



So, I go out to the woodpile and pick up my axe.

Instead of splitting wood,

I split the wind with my axe.

The wood is nonsensical.

I split the wind.



"Cold mountain is a house

Without beams or walls.

The six doors left and right are open

The hall is blue sky.

The rooms all vacant and vague

The East wall beats on the West wall

At the center nothing".



From "Cold Mountain Poems"

Twenty-four poems by Han-Shan

Translated by Gary Snyder


john
John,

This is interesting but in itself is not shamanism (is it Tao?) I think I'm right in saying that that's Tao, but shamanism predates Tao and the Tao Te Ching (6th to 3rd centuries BC) by millennia and is very different. I think the Tao of China was similar to the later Vedanta religion of India, such as different types of yoga and Patajali's sutras (200 BC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

Most traditional Chinese Taoists are polytheistic. Nature and ancestor spirits are also common in popular Taoism. Organized Taoism distinguishes its ritual activity from that of the folk religion, which some professional Taoists (Daoshi) view as debased. This sort of shamanism is eschewed for an emphasis on internal alchemy among the "elite" Taoists.

Chinese alchemy, astrology, cuisine, several Chinese martial arts, Chinese traditional medicine, fengshui, and many styles of qigong breath training disciplines are intertwined with Taoism throughout history.
It's great that you've read Eliade's book, but reading that book or any other will not give you the experience of shamanism, as the anthropologists found from whom the reports in that book are compiled.

I read the Vedanta and practised yoga for almost 35 years. I wouldn't say there was no spiritual progress - but it was the difference between slogging uphill on foot and being given a lift in a souped up Ferrari.

Reading Eliade's book is a bit like reading a recipe for Chocolate Cake when you don' t know what flour, eggs, milk, sugar and cocoa are.

So you need someone, a cookery teacher, to come along and show you what the ingredients are, and then how to combine them in a bowl, slide the mixture into a greaseproof lined cake tin and put it in the oven at 200 degrees for 50 minutes.

After that, you can take your Chocolate Cake out of the oven, and eat it! Yum yum. Now that's what I call an Archaic Technique for Ecstasy!
woodrabbit
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Post by woodrabbit »

John and Ishtar, I have been enjoying your dialogue...

Have been a Harner style practitioner for the last decade. Shamanism is undeniably experential, once you find your own personal rabbit hole, hang on to your hat.

Budhhism is a wonderful and possibly perfect model, but it is sitting practice and more pertantly the post meditation experience that brings that palpable clarity to the day.

Taoism has a wonderfull inclusiveness but its practicing Tai Chi, Chi Qong and using Feng Shui in your environment large and small that changes your life.

Same for Shamanism....rattle or drum and a good teacher, oh my!

John, we haven't met, but I have enjoyed your posts. Based on your insights, assumed that you had some sort of Shamanic practice going.
Could not recommend Ishtar's links more! If you are curious and comfortable with it, you won't be dissappointed.....hang on to your hat.

Getting back to the origin of this thread, Shamanic practice can explain simultaneous leaps of understanding accross continents, and so far seems to be the only way to understand the Nazca lines w/o aliens...

As for the shellfish thing, even though I'm a big beleaver in "Boats First", if my memory of my New England childhood serves me, we just waited for the tide to go out.
Its more complicated than it seems.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

A million welcomes to you, Woodrabbit!

Now I'm not the only shaman in town and so I look forward to lots of interesting conversations with you! In fact, it sounds as if you have more experience than me. I only began my training last year, although I've been steeped in all this kinda stuff for most of my life, having had various Indian gurus and such like. So it took me a long time to get to shamanism.

Anyway, it's good to know that you're around! :lol:
woodrabbit
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Post by woodrabbit »

Ishtar
thanks for welcome, have enjoyed your curiosity, threads and Vedic Knowledge.
Look forward to more.

As for Shamanic practice. don't practice as much as I used to, hard to find and maintain a healthy context in modern life....which leads me to my hunch that in the past, waay past, the human experience was more of a seamless experience of waking, dreaming, trance and everything in between. (Interesting French study in the last 10+- years that recreated the long winter sleeping cycles of 12-15 hrs in caves that seriously stirred the pots of the waking time of the participants.)

I'm thinking that the seperation and objectifying of distinct states of mind is a fairly recent development/collective decision. Entering a/the Shamanic state/mind may be seen as an opportunity to enter the Ancient Mind.....which from an Archaeologist's point of view could be kinda interesting even informative.

Things don't NEED to make quite as much sense from a multidimensional point of view.
Its more complicated than it seems.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

woodrabbit wrote:Ishtar

Interesting French study in the last 10+- years that recreated the long winter sleeping cycles of 12-15 hrs in caves that seriously stirred the pots of the waking time of the participants.
One of the most amazing shamanic things I did was to spend five days in total darkness. I'm hoping to do a further two-week session some time soon. In ancient times, and not so ancient, shamanic adepts would spend up to nine months in total darkness (usually in a cave) as part of their initiation. I can tell you, even five days is amazing...so I can't imagine what states of mind you go into during nine months!

Also, I've felt the need to sleep a lot this winter - so maybe that ties in with the French study.

I agree with much of what you say. I don't know how the practice of shamanism is going to fit into my life (or possibly even totally disrupt my life!). At the risk of sounding pretentious, I find a lot of comes out through my writing (words being sounds being seeds being intentions etc), although not necessarily this sort of writing (on discussion boards) but more in my pathetic fumblings at poetry.

I guess the original bards were the scribes of the shamans - or something like that. Actually, genetically, I'm a Smith, and the smiths are even older than the shamans and, apparently, were often feared by them as their powers were superior and they also were stricter about living in truth.
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john
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Post by john »

Woodrabbit and Ishtar -

Had to do a concordance before writing this.

First off;

http://www.julianjaynes.org/

There is a striking similarity between the Shamanic and the Bicameral mind.

For whatever reason, the Bicameral mind changed into the presently accepted standard of the intellectual, or objective mind. There are a thousand differing theories surrounding this topic. Physical, psychological, environmental; the list goes on.

Speaking only for myself, I will state that I can, and do, go through Shamanic/Bicameral episodes, but my "normal" personal continuum is the intellectual/objective.

Regarding the Tao.

It is my opinion that the Tao that we see is the distillation, first as oral tradition, then as written, of the previous and underlying Shamanic/Bicameral non-objective worldview.

In other words, the Tao is one of the very few outcroppings of Paleolithic shamanism - although translated many times - which we have in the present.

This is to be completely separated from the subject of religions - an entirely Neolithic event in my opinion - which have everything to do with political/economic influence (self-consciousness) and nothing to do with the individual razor's edge of the Shamanic/Bicameral.


hoka hey


john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

Mark Twain
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

After reading the link provided by John to Julian Jaynes' website, I would like to discuss his theory about the bicameral mind.

I think there may be some value to this, because all three of us (John, woodrabbit and me) have experienced being in the shamanic state, and thus have a practical experience of what Jaynes (I'm assuming) only knew about in theory.

Anyway, just to clarify our terms, this is from Wiki:

In psychology, bicameralism is a controversial hypothesis which argues that the human brain once assumed a state known as a bicameral mind in which cognitive functions are divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking," and a second part which listens and obeys.

The term was coined by psychologist Julian Jaynes, who presented the idea in the 1976 book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, wherein he made the case that the bicameral mentality was the normal state of the human mind everywhere as recently as 3000 years ago. He used governmental bicameralism metaphorically to describe this state, where the stored up experience of the right hemisphere was transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations.

This mental model was replaced by the conscious mode of thought, which Jaynes argues is based on metaphorical language. The idea that language is necessary for subjective consciousness or higher forms of thought has been gaining in acceptance in recent years, with proponents such as Daniel Dennett, William Calvin, Merlin Donald, John Limber, Howard Margolis, and Jose Luis Bermudez.
Basically, I think what he's saying is that shamanism stems from a time when man's mind was formed differently. He calls it the 'bicameral mind' because it is about the right and left lobes interacting with one another in a way that they no longer do, and haven't since the invention of language. He believes that the 'spirits' or 'gods' who talked to the shamans were just an aspect of their own personalities (not consciousness, because Jaynes believes that human consciousness only began to exist when language began).

I've been wondering about this, and here's a couple of early thoughts on it, to throw into the ring.

First of all, I find it hard to believe that consciousness is dependent on language, as I have been beyond language in my shamanic experiences and I am definitely conscious at the time - I just don't know who I am. Or rather, I know who I am but it definitely isn't the Ishtar/Gill person who I spend most of my time with. So 'self awareness' could be an issue - but not consciousness, imho.

Secondly, the spirits/gods sometimes tell shamans what's going to happen in the future. So that raises the question, how would that be possible if it was just one part of the shaman's brain talking to the other part?

Just some food for thought there.
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Digit
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Post by Digit »

If that is what Shamanism is then I too have experienced it, but without control.
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Post by Ishtar »

No sorry Digit ... your state of mind after 10 pints doesn't count as shamanism! :lol:
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Digit
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Post by Digit »

3 pints is my limit then I fall over, not into a trance.
I'll PM you later.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Also fascinated by this bit:

bicameralism is a controversial hypothesis which argues that the human brain once assumed a state known as a bicameral mind in which cognitive functions are divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking," and a second part which listens and obeys ...
I still have this voice that commands, and then I usually eventually obey ... but it's a bit more complicated, and rather like this:

First voice: Go the kitchen and get a chocolate biscuit.

Second voice: No, I can't. I'm supposed to be on a diet.

First voice: Oh come on ... you know that whatever you do, you'll never lose that weight. Anyway, it's just one biscuit....

Second voice: Yes, but if I have one, I'll want three and possibly four...

And so it goes on. Needless to say, the first voice usually wins. But as you can see, it is more an argument - a persuasion or negotiation - than me mindlessly obeying.
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Post by Minimalist »

So you hear voices, Ish?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Post by Ishtar »

No, that's just me talking to myself. It's not like I hear it as voices.

In the shamanic state, though, I do hear people (spirits) talking to me, but I don't hear it as auditory sounds - it's more like they download their thoughts into my head. It's like a brain dump.

It's different to telepathy which I have also experienced with my guru which is more of a conversation, with person A speaking and then person B replying, albeit on a non-verbal level.

But shamans call what I experience, in the shamanic state, "instantaneous transmission" - it's different to telepathy because we're both talking and listening to each other simultaneously. It's like a stream of consciousness going between two heads....hard to explain, but I'm doing my best.

The thing with the chocolate biscuit is just me in normal consciousness, and I'm sure familiar to most people.
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Post by Minimalist »

Just checking.

:D
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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