Cave 13b - the 164k question

[john]

Let's all be a little more respectful of each other, shall we?

All -

R

E

S

P E C T

- by the incomparable Aretha.......



Now.

Those of you who wish to superimpose a morality play (Neolithic and later); specifically, "good and evil"; specifically, religion

upon the Shamanic tradition

which does not differentiate between past, present or future

are making the fundamental mistake

of confusing a lively discussion about perceptions and values

of shamanic space and time and the communication thereof

with a factional moral rigor (mortis)

belonging only to the present political/religious paralysis.

Therefore, Danann 14,

I would suggest you find a suitable religious/political forum in which

to express your worldview.

Ishtar:

Measured thought and measured response

are a hallmark of this forum

which I treasure.

Even when people are being off the wall, goofball funny.


The shamanic is another of those elephants which appears to have been present in the living room of both Hn and Hs - and Das Klub, of course, has rigorously looked past the subject, to easier societal prey, such as "good and evil".

Represented by blondhaired paleolithic studs capable of killing any large mammal on the planet, while the genetically and mentally dysfunctional Neandertals continue on their miserable anabasis to extinction.

Right.

I suggest we all continue this exchange

according to its original intent.


john

[Ishtar]

Hi Dannan

You’ve PM-ed me but I think I should reply here because I’ve obviously offended more than just your good self.

I do apologise for my extreme reaction yesterday. I'd been having a day of bad stuff (you might even say, evil stuff) happening to me. So when I read your idea about the non-existence of good and evil, I saw red. And then the thing about the knife was supposed to be a joke but because I was angry, it didn’t come over as very funny. So once again, I’m sorry for causing any offence.

But even without the events of yesterday, I would have disagreed with Dannan's view that good and evil are the same thing. This is a sort of New Age idea – along with “It’s all One, man” – that, along with so much else in the Sixties and early Seventies, filtered down into our consciousnesses from the Indian Vedantic thinking.

The Vedanta is a later religious development from the times of the Vedas when shamanism was practised in India. The non-existence of good and evil stems from a particular Vedantic idea called ‘advaita’ or non-dualism which is about transcending the dualities of nature - for example, good and evil - to achieve enlightenment or God realisation. However, in my opinion and experience of India, advaita is just a dry philosophy and I’m willing to bet that not one single yogi ever achieved any form of enlightenment by practising it.

I also think to say that good and evil are the same thing is to show total disrespect to all those who have suffered at the hands of human beings who have acted in an evil way throughout history. In my view, one of the most evil forces in the last couple of thousand years has been religion that forces its dogma on others at the point of the sword or Stealth bomber. The latest example of this evil, in my view, is the American invasion of Iraq, which, so far, has been responsible for more deaths of civilians in that country than Saddam Hussein.

So if we say that good and evil are the same thing, it disempowers us from being able to make a stand when bad stuff happens – and this, to me, has been the aim of religion from Day One, to disempower us in order to control us. I'm sure you've heard the saying "Evil only happens when good men do nothing." Thus, to me, advaita is a useless but dangerous philosophy on just about every level.

But while I'm not apologising for my view, or even the strength of it, I am sorry for going too far in how I expressed it and I hope Dannan, that you won’t be put off from posting here because of that.

John – I think your post was brilliant. You said it all beautifully, like a poet - so let's get back to shamanism.

[dannan14]

Apology for your reaction accepted. Any apology for your point of view, even if you had offered it would not be wanted

i think you are making some false assumptions about what i meant, but since i used so few words that is understandable. That would belong in another thread anyway.

So please, carry on. This discussion was really getting interesting.

[Ishtar]

What I'm finding interesting about it, Dannan, was that it touched on issues to do with empowerment and disempowerment.

In my experience, one of the main differences between shamanism and religion is that shamanism empowers the individual to work with their own 'gods' or spirits, in a one-on-one equal partnership. But religion says to you,

"No you can't have your own relationship with gods or God because you are nothing and he/they are so great that they wouldn't ever want to have anything to do with the likes of you. Look at that statue on that plinth over there of that god. Can't you see how much greater it is than you? So what you need is a middle man - a sort of holy, halfway house intermediary like me, your priest. So bring all your prayers and offerings to me, and I'll pass them on. And don't be stingy! "

Thus, we are immediately disempowered by giving our power away to the religion/holy man - and in my view, most illness or disease (whether physical, emotional or whatever) comes from disempowerment or lack of power. And most wars are caused because one group of persons who are feeling disempowered want to conquer and steal the power of another group of people. Thus all human suffering is about power, or lack of it.

So my experience of shamanism is that it is re-empowering to get back in touch with my own spirits, my own power, which is my birthright. Thus it is the opposite of religion.

[Beagle]

Some people on this thread are on drugs!

That's Ok - just don't hurt other people. That's a cardinal rule.

[Ishtar]

I hope you don't mean me, Beags.

I don't take any drugs. I used to in the Sixties and Seventies - but only consciousness expanding stuff like LSD, mescalin, 'magic mushrooms' .... and dope of course ... but I don't take anything now, I rarely even have a drink.

[Beagle]

I hope you don't mean me, Beags.

I don't take any drugs. I used to in the Sixties and Seventies - but only consciousness expanding stuff like LSD, mescalin, 'magic mushrooms' .... and dope of course ... but I don't take anything now, I rarely even have a drink.

Ahh yes, what memories. The sixties and seventies: I had more fun than I would ever admit to. Unfortunately, I was drug free - maybe I could have had more fun.

[Digit]

Ah! Flower power, free love, ooops the wife's about! I'm off!

[Minimalist]

Glad everything has calmed down this morning.

[dannan14]

What I'm finding interesting about it, Dannan, was that it touched on issues to do with empowerment and disempowerment.

i find that when i can see balance in my environment that i feel very empowered.

In my experience, one of the main differences between shamanism and religion is that shamanism empowers the individual to work with their own 'gods' or spirits, in a one-on-one equal partnership. But religion says to you,

"No you can't have your own relationship with gods or God because you are nothing and he/they are so great that they wouldn't ever want to have anything to do with the likes of you. Look at that statue on that plinth over there of that god. Can't you see how much greater it is than you? So what you need is a middle man - a sort of holy, halfway house intermediary like me, your priest. So bring all your prayers and offerings to me, and I'll pass them on. And don't be stingy! "

Thus, we are immediately disempowered by giving our power away to the religion/holy man - and in my view, most illness or disease (whether physical, emotional or whatever) comes from disempowerment or lack of power. And most wars are caused because one group of persons who are feeling disempowered want to conquer and steal the power of another group of people. Thus all human suffering is about power, or lack of it.

So my experience of shamanism is that it is re-empowering to get back in touch with my own spirits, my own power, which is my birthright. Thus it is the opposite of religion.

i really could not agree more. With all due respect to those who follow one, i think religion generally perverts or distorts the spirituality from whence it came. Obviously that is not true for all followers of religion as i know quite a few people (my Mother included) who have found spiritual harmony through their religion.

It really does take all kinds. That's a lesson i have to keep learning because i easily grow intolerant of human stupidity whether its politicians ordering bombs dropped on poor people or idiots running stop signs and treating my street like it's the freeway.

So i hope that sheds a little light on where i am coming from. i am accustomed to being misunderstood so i often have to get up, dust myself off and try to figure out what went wrong. These misunderstandings are the genesis of my earlier comment about the part of the brain that controls speech being the same part that controls higher mind functions like non-verbal, non-physical communication and other concepts. i call these the senses that are not the physical five.

i don't know if that question has ever been asked by a serious brain researcher. It seems to me that if would be difficult to find funding for an idea so far out of the mainstream. But who knows, maybe someone will show someday that our speech center is too highly developed to the detriment of other abilities.

[Ishtar]

I'm sure John will be interested in talking to you about some of that, Dannan.

For myself, from my studies into psychoneuroimmunology (about 15 years ago, with Deepak Chopra) I learned that actually our mind, our thinking processes, are not just in our head, in our brain. There are intelligent receptors called neuropeptides that run through the whole body along neural pathways and which talk to the brain.

This is from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology

The immune system and the brain talk to each other through signaling pathways. The brain and the immune system are the two major adaptive systems of the body. During an immune response the brain and the immune system "talk to each other" and this process is essential for maintaining homeostasis. Two major pathway systems are involved in this cross-talk: the Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (HPA axis) and the sympathetic nervous system (SNS). The activation of SNS during an immune response might be aimed to localize the inflammatory response.

The Chinese have known for thousands of years that there is also a part of our mind in our gut area which deals with instinctive communications. That's why we use terms like 'gut feeling'. We get a feeling in our gut about something. The Chinese also believe that there is a similar centre in the heart area that deals with emotions.

The one in the gut has recently been discovered by Western science:

This is from Psychology Today: http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto ... 00013.html

Ever get a gut feeling about someone, or anxious butterflies in your stomach? That's because you have a second brain in your bowel, according to Michael Gershon, M.D., author of The Second Brain (HarperCollins, 1999), and a neurobiologist at New York's Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center. Gershon recently explained to PT how an independent network of over 100 billion neurons in the gut not only signals our bodies to stress but causes illness.

So I think that perhaps the question about which part of the brain is responsible for what part of our communication may be misguided. The question perhaps should be, where does our thinking come from?

[dannan14]

So I think that perhaps the question about which part of the brain is responsible for what part of our communication may be misguided. The question perhaps should be, where does our thinking come from?

That sounds like a much tougher question, but since communication is a translation of one's thoughts perhaps you are right. Thanks for that second link, i think i may check out the book.

[Ishtar]

Shamans believe that 'thoughts are things'. This is a very potent realisation when you get it. It means that you create your own reality:

To the trained Shaman, experience is experience. There is no difference between the reality of one experience over another. If I experienced it, then it must be real. I may not at this moment understand what I have experienced, but that does not make it any less real. Shamans frequently travel into worlds well beyond logical or even conceptual reality. Shamans, using Spirit Journeys, travel through other realms by means of what traditional Western society would classically term imagination, to achieve the object of their quest, be it hidden knowledge, power, a spirit animal, or the soul fragment of a current patient. A Shaman knows that these spirit journeys are more than just idle fancy or an over-active imagination. The shaman's thoughts and feelings are literally forms of energy, a spirit double if you will, that travel to very specific locations on the Web of Power.

So what is the difference between Shamanic Sight, Visualization and Imagination? Let's begin with, what is Visualization? Visualization can be compared to a movie running through your mind, and you are the director. You choose the script, you choose the characters, you choose the location. Visualization is accomplished through the medium of your imagination. Imagination is thought form generated by the mind that allows you to project yourself beyond the bounds of current time and space, and experience beyond your normal senses. However, once you learn to use the tool of visualization effectively, the results become far to tangible to be a thought form without substance.

Visualization is connected to the subconscious mind (Lower Self), which interfaces with the Higher Self and the World of Spirit. The Subconscious speaks to our conscious (Middle) self through signs, symbols, pictures, dreams, etc. - or in other words, visualization. This is the language of the Subconscious. The subconscious constantly seeks ways to communicate with us, but the logical mind, being logical, analytical and linear, cannot hear it. However, once the logical mind does find a way to communicate with the subconscious - a code, if you will - the subconscious becomes a powerhouse of information. This "code" is the art of visualization.

The logical mind is like a robot or a computer - it cannot have any new thoughts of its own, it only re-hashes previous experiences. It is through the subconscious that we are free to explore, through the vehicle of imagination and "movies of the mind", new thoughts and experiences before they occur. During sleep, visualization is called dreaming, during waking hours, it is called daydreaming. It is difficult to control your dreams, but you can control your daydreams. The ability to direct the "movies of your mind" is confirmed by the proven fact that mortal men and women can direct these daydreams. The ability to properly direct the movies of your mind during a meditative state connects you to your intuition, or Higher Self, enabling you to receive information from a higher source than was previously possible.

http://www.shamans-cave.com/Reality_Thr ... ation.html

In other words, the bicameral mind.

I think this is connected to the findings of scientists that we only see 1 per cent of what is actually there. I think we have chosen, or settled for, in a process of negotiation with ourselves and others, to just see this lowest common denominator of 1 per cent. I have found that getting back in touch with my subsconcious and my Higher Self is expanding my awareness, so that I'm beginning to see more and more than just that 1 per cent.

[dannan14]

Ahh, that 1 percent is what one perceives with all the filters they have learned since birth. That is the main reason that constantly changing my point of view is so important to me. To use the modern cliche, every time i am able to change my point of view or 'think outside the box' i strip away some of those filters and see more than that 1%. Reality is a big place, i am not inclined to miss out on something just because i don't know its there

[Ishtar]

Ahh, that 1 percent is what one perceives with all the filters they have learned since birth. That is the main reason that constantly changing my point of view is so important to me. To use the modern cliche, every time i am able to change my point of view or 'think outside the box' i strip away some of those filters and see more than that 1%. Reality is a big place, i am not inclined to miss out on something just because i don't know its there

But you've got to be sure that you're not just changing your point of view within the 1 per cent, just getting a different vantage point from within the same 1 sq centimetre box.