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Frank Harrist

Post by Frank Harrist »

Rokcet Scientist wrote:
Frank Harrist wrote:This [North-America] was a land of plenty. There was little incentive to advance technically.
Egypt – 3,500 years BC and all through ancient history – was a land of plenty too, Frank*. So, according to your theory, they also had "little incentive to advance technically". Yet, the contrary is true: civilisation and technologies advanced greatly in ancient Egypt...
I.o.w.: living in a land of plenty does NOT automatically mean there's no incentive to develop technology! There is no link!

* Greek writers amply documented their surprise at the Egyptians' easy life. The Egyptians didn't work hard at all. 'Cause they didn't have to. They lived the good life. The Nile brought everything they needed.

So, since there don't seem to be any other explanations, and since nobody on this forum actually (apparently) has the guts to say it out loud (though Bob hinted at it), I'll say it for you:
the reason NA Indians' civilisation and technologies have stagnated in the past 11,000 years is because they are stupid and lazy!
In fact the NA Indians, as a people/race, were so totally useless for normal day-to-day work*, that real workers were desperately needed. Ergo: the reason for the black slave trade!

*Has anything changed...?
That's unfair. They had a different philosophy of life. The Egyptians didn't discover the wheel either. They saw enemy chariots and copied them.

A stupid, lazy person wouldn't be able to live off the land, or independently invent agriculture. Or build huge earthen mounds one basket of dirt at a time. Or take only what they needed from a buffalo herd or team up to slaughter a mammoth. They were different, but that doesn't make them inferior. Who says our way of life is better? Technology isn't necessarily always a good thing. We as a technologically advanced people have lost a lot. How many of us could live for even a few days in the wild with only the tools we manufacture for ourselves? We destroyed their way of life by exterminating bison nearly to extinction. By taking the land they needed to hunt and farm on. The sterotype of "wild plains indians" doesn't fit the majority of people who were here. If you think that superior technology is what made it possible for the europeans to practically wipe out the NAs you are mistaken. It was disease, which they had no way to combat, because it was diseases they had never encountered before. They had medicine, admittedly some of it was primitive, but some worked better than our modern stuff. But having had no reason to come up with cures for diseases they didn't even know existed they were very vulnerable. They were human and had their faults, but they also had their virtues but judging them by our standards isn't fair. They saw no need to invent things to make life easier, their life was just like they wanted it. Comparing one culture to another like that (NAs to Egyptians) isn't an accurate way to judge a culture. They all have their reasons for being the way they are.
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MichelleH
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Debugging Bugs

Post by MichelleH »

Yup, we've a got bug in the database. It's being worked on now. We thought it was fixed yesterday but apparently not! :oops:

Hopefully it will be done sometime today. :wink:

Sorry for the problems

MichelleH
We've Got Fossils - We win ~ Lewis Black

Red meat, cheese, tobacco, and liquor...it works for me ~ Anthony Bourdain

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Leona Conner
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Post by Leona Conner »

You have just insulted thousands of people with Native American blood running in their veins, myself included. They were not lazy, like the Egyptians life here was pretty good, they had everything they needed.
The impression that they are stupid and lazy is because the white man made him become so. We took everything away and made them live like animals on reservations. Does anyone now have the right to expect more of them? NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
draco

Post by draco »

I think that:

1) we know very little or almost nothing about the real story of peoples in nord america (and not only :)); what they thought, how spend their time, the facts of ten thousands years where have gone?

2) if we had not (and for a miracle) some ancient copies of greek books, what could we say about Pericle's age? Yes, something about stones and statues. And then? I am italian; we know almost nothing about Etruscans, but they were a great people and made a lot of thing. All is forgotten, the books are lost.

3) a lot of people and cultures were like native american's one, at the "stone age". All stupid but us? And we are good because have steel and robots and are able to kill them all? Difficult to believe.

4) you are sure that we are the "civilized"? Sure that our "civilzation" shall last 10.000 years like the stone one? Definition of progress and civilization? What are we doing, where are we going to, are we happy?

5) read the book of Jared Diamond " Guns, Germs, and Steel" ? Could help.

well, the world is large and the story of man has been long and various. we know almost nothing about it, but this does'nt mean that there is nothing to know.
And it is often hard to understand and appreciate a culture from outside.
Guest

Post by Guest »

mmmhhhh.
I think that:

1) we know very little about ancient story of man, and particularly about ancient american people; if we had not, for a miracle, some ancient greek books, what could we know about Pericle's age, apart some stones and bronze statues? And in fact we know almost nothing about ancient people around the little land of Greece.

2) who is civilized? apart that is difficult to appreciate another culture by outside, what is "progress"? To be able to build robots and machinery and kill life and other people? Where are we going to, who are we, what are we doing? Shall our "civilization" last 10.000 years? I have a lot of doubts.

If we know little about something, it doesn't mean that there is nothing to know: it's only that we are ignorants.
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MichelleH
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Post by MichelleH »

So, since there don't seem to be any other explanations, and since nobody on this forum actually (apparently) has the guts to say it out loud (though Bob hinted at it), I'll say it for you:
the reason NA Indians' civilisation and technologies have stagnated in the past 11,000 years is because they are stupid and lazy!
In fact the NA Indians, as a people/race, were so totally useless for normal day-to-day work*
Rokcet,

As a second generation Cherokee, your comments are rude, not appreciated nor based in fact.

Further attacks will result in removal.

MichelleH
We've Got Fossils - We win ~ Lewis Black

Red meat, cheese, tobacco, and liquor...it works for me ~ Anthony Bourdain

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

I don't think I said that, R/S. My only significant comment on this thread was that I thought the proposition was oversimplified. There was quite a discrepancy between Indians tribes in terms of how they lived.

Even the plains Indians adopted the horse after the Spanish let a couple get away.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

MichelleH wrote:
So, since there don't seem to be any other explanations, and since nobody on this forum actually (apparently) has the guts to say it out loud (though Bob hinted at it), I'll say it for you:
the reason NA Indians' civilisation and technologies have stagnated in the past 11,000 years is because they are stupid and lazy!
In fact the NA Indians, as a people/race, were so totally useless for normal day-to-day work*, that real workers were desperately needed. Ergo: the reason for the black slave trade!

*Has anything changed...?
Rokcet,

As a second generation Cherokee, your comments are rude, not appreciated nor based in fact.

Further attacks will result in removal.

MichelleH
Michelle,
if you have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it. It is the sole reason I started this thread! To find out WHY!
Or don't you – as 'a second generation Cherokee' – want (us) to find out, maybe?
Removal would be strong reinforcement of that possibility, of course.
Last edited by Rokcet Scientist on Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stan
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good book

Post by stan »

For a stimulating and provocative read, try
"Indian Givers: How the Indians of America Transformed
the World," by Jack Weatherford, 1988. (A Ballantine paperback.
ISBN:0-449-90496-2)

It shows how much the invading Europeans depended on Native
American ingenuity.

And it is a pretty good answer to R/S's assertions.
The deeper you go, the higher you fly.
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Wanna play vague?
Why don't you put your arguments on the table? Right here! I did. Now it's your turn.
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Rokcet Scientist wrote:So, since there don't seem to be any other explanations, and since nobody on this forum actually (apparently) has the guts to say it out loud (though Bob hinted at it), I'll say it for you:
the reason NA Indians' civilisation and technologies have stagnated in the past 11,000 years is because they are stupid and lazy!
In fact the NA Indians, as a people/race, were so totally useless for normal day-to-day work*, that real workers were desperately needed. Ergo: the reason for the black slave trade!

*Has anything changed...?
MichelleH wrote:Rokcet,

As a second generation Cherokee, your comments are rude, not appreciated nor based in fact.

Further attacks will result in removal.

MichelleH
Rokcet Scientist wrote:Michelle,
if you have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it. It is the sole reason I started this thread! To find out WHY!
Or don't you – as 'a second generation Cherokee' – want (us) to find out, maybe?
Removal would be strong reinforcement of that possibility, of course.
Let the record show that there has been no better explanation offered – not even a worse one – for a whole week, in spite of all that kneejerk-reflex huffin' and puffin'.

Dissappointing.

So the posit above may be not very nice to hear for some, but it is nevertheless the best explanation available. And since the Germans have learnt to live with their past, I submit the Indians should too.
Guest

reply

Post by Guest »

Once again 'Rokcet Scientist' proves himself to be a bigoted troll.
If people have been thrown off this forum for evangelising, why is this behaviour tolerated? Do the rules apply all the time, or not?
Rokcet Scientist

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Such elegant discourse. :lol:

FYI:
If people have been thrown off this forum for evangelising
They haven't.
Guest

reply

Post by Guest »

err, Jean Marie? :wink:
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