Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

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Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk »

I disagree with the statement that Elohim meant "idols" as that was very clearly not the belief of the ancient hebrews (or 7th century hebrews if one refuses to accept older authorship). Idols, in hebrew thinking, were dead as stone or wood, while gods were living, breathing entities.

Michael Heiser has done a respectable job studying this issue in depth and has written several papers which directly speak to this issue.
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/

In one such document he looks at the modern terminology we use to categorize religious belief systems: monotheistic, polytheistic, henotheistic; and concludes that none of them adequately defines the world view of the hebrew people:
The proposal offered here is that scholars should stop trying to define Israel’s religion with singular, imprecise modern terms and instead stick to describing what Israel believed. “Monotheism” as it is currently understood means that no other gods exist. This term is inadequate for describing Israelite religion, but suggesting it be done away with would no doubt cause considerable consternation among certain parts of the academic community, not to mention the interested laity. “Henotheism” and “monolatry,” while perhaps better, are inadequate because they do not say enough about what the canonical writer believed. Israel was certainly “monolatrous,” but that term comments only on what Israel believed about the proper object of worship, not what it believed about Yahweh’s nature and attributes with respect to the other gods.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/MonotheismProblem.pdf
rich
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Post by rich »

FM:

I agree "idols" isn't the actual meaning and that was why I added "or images". Not that images is the ideal word either - I was merely trying to point out the apparently obvious that it referred to a plurality or multiplicity of deity(ies).
As far as older authorship I have no problem with that part - whether or not what was written meant what people think it meant - - -
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

rich wrote:The Hebrews weren't monotheistic until Moses supposedly led them out of Egypt. Elohim is plural for Idols or Images. Yahweh was to be their god (or more correctly they were to be his people or his portion).
That's the writer E's version. But if you read J, they always had Yahweh as their god right from the beginning of creation. Of course, J stands for Jahweh (German for Yahweh), so he was probably in the pay of the Yahwists!
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

rich wrote:FM:

I agree "idols" isn't the actual meaning and that was why I added "or images". Not that images is the ideal word either - I was merely trying to point out the apparently obvious that it referred to a plurality or multiplicity of deity(ies).
As far as older authorship I have no problem with that part - whether or not what was written meant what people think it meant - - -
Gods existed before idols, Rich, in the form of spirits. It was the Greeks who first called them gods.
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Post by rich »

Very true Ish - thought is parent to the word.
But as for the Greeks starting to call them gods first - I think there were a few others before them. Didn't the Egyptians, and the Mesopotamians, and Phoenetians, etc. etc?
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
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Post by Ishtar »

rich wrote:Very true Ish - thought is parent to the word.
But as for the Greeks starting to call them gods first - I think there were a few others before them. Didn't the Egyptians, and the Mesopotamians, and Phoenetians, etc. etc?
I don't know ... I know we call their 'gods' 'gods', but they probably didn't. Most of our religious words come from the Greek branch of Indo-European. For instance, pantheon of gods - pantheon also comes from the Greek.

Here's what the Online Etymological Dictionary has to say about the origins of the word 'god'. (my bolding)

god
O.E. god "supreme being, deity," from P.Gmc. *guthan (cf. Du. god, Ger. Gott, O.N. guð, Goth. guþ), from PIE *ghut- "that which is invoked" (cf. Skt. huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke." But some trace it to PIE *ghu-to- "poured," from root *gheu- "to pour, pour a libation" (source of Gk. khein "to pour," khoane "funnel" and khymos "juice;" also in the phrase khute gaia "poured earth," referring to a burial mound). "Given the Greek facts, the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound" [Watkins]. Cf. also Zeus. Not related to good. Originally neut. in Gmc., the gender shifted to masc. after the coming of Christianity. O.E. god was probably closer in sense to L. numen. A better word to translate deus might have been P.Gmc. *ansuz, but this was only used of the highest deities in the Gmc. religion, and not of foreign gods, and it was never used of the Christian God. It survives in Eng. mainly in the personal names beginning in Os-.

"I want my lawyer, my tailor, my servants, even my wife to believe in God, because it means that I shall be cheated and robbed and cuckolded less often. ... If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." [Voltaire]

First record of Godawful "terrible" is from 1878; God speed as a parting is from c.1470. God-fearing is attested from 1835. God bless you after someone sneezes is credited to St. Gregory the Great, but the pagan Romans (Absit omen) and Greeks had similar customs.
So it looks like it goes right back to Indra, an important Rig-vedic storm god.
rich
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Post by rich »

The rig-vedas - isn't there something there about everything having it's own rhythmn or vibration? Is that true also of the deities?
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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Deities ARE the rhythmn and vibration. They are energy ... it's us who have form and deal with the material.
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Post by rich »

ah - I thought the rhythmns emanated from the deities from their singing or whatever it was. But wasn't sure if they had any to their beings.
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Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

We can sing to them. Certain sounds contained in Sanskrit mantras have power in that they "talk to the gods in their own language" (well, that's the closest I can put it). This is the power of certain sounds. It's not just about the meaning of the word. It's about the sound, or vibration it makes. These particular sounds or words have power. That's why the ancient European witches' Grimoires (books of magic) contained what are known as spells. If you know how to formulate the right name or word to use, if you can spell it, you can 'cast a spell'.
rich
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Post by rich »

Dang - guess I'll never be able to talk to them then - I'd have to learn a whole new language - :shock:
No - I must have confused it with another religion then I guess.
I need better memory - :D
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
Forum Monk
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Post by Forum Monk »

Ishtar wrote:We can sing to them. Certain sounds contained in Sanskrit mantras have power in that they "talk to the gods in their own language" (well, that's the closest I can put it). This is the power of certain sounds. It's not just about the meaning of the word. It's about the sound, or vibration it makes. These particular sounds or words have power. That's why the ancient European witches' Grimoires (books of magic) contained what are known as spells. If you know how to formulate the right name or word to use, if you can spell it, you can 'cast a spell'.
One of the most powerful things in all of creation according to Judeo-Christian belief, is the "spoken word". God created the universe by speaking it into existence.
Ishtar
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Post by Ishtar »

Forum Monk wrote:
Ishtar wrote:We can sing to them. Certain sounds contained in Sanskrit mantras have power in that they "talk to the gods in their own language" (well, that's the closest I can put it). This is the power of certain sounds. It's not just about the meaning of the word. It's about the sound, or vibration it makes. These particular sounds or words have power. That's why the ancient European witches' Grimoires (books of magic) contained what are known as spells. If you know how to formulate the right name or word to use, if you can spell it, you can 'cast a spell'.
One of the most powerful things in all of creation according to Judeo-Christian belief, is the "spoken word". God created the universe by speaking it into existence.
Yes. To the Vedics, that sound was Aum or Om. They call it the primordial sound or primordial vibration.
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Post by Ishtar »

This a modern shaman who used sound or vibration to heal the planet as well as individuals. He's worked on a global level to send sound healing into the Aids situation in Africa.

http://www.tomkenyon.com/home.php

I use Tom Kenyon's music when I want to clear stuck energy patterns or rebalance or cleanse.

In my experience, the vibration caused by the sound actually rattles or disturbs and then rearranges unhealthy or stuck energy. This is line with how shamans say they don't believe in evil, just energy in the wrong place. Sometimes the energy just needs to be moved on into a place where it will be more useful, or transformed into something more nourishing. Sound is the way to accomplish this, just like a big heavy lorry going past your house can rattle the windows.

We are also able to see sound, but have forgotten how to do so. The only way we get to see sound these days is when there's a thunderstorm. The lightening which we see first is the visible form of the thunderclap, which comes a few second later.
Minimalist
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Post by Minimalist »

I disagree with the statement that Elohim meant "idols" as that was very clearly not the belief of the ancient hebrews (or 7th century hebrews if one refuses to accept older authorship).

Ooh...I find myself in agreement, Monk. In modern Hebrew parlance the form "Elohim" is plural and would mean "gods." They have twisted themselves into knots trying to show that it means something else but it misses the point which is that this is the oldest form of the word and can we be totally certain what it meant in Aramaic...or even Akkadian...which is what the Canaanites apparently spoke before Aramaic.

Elohim seems to refer to the pantheon of Canaanite gods. It is only later that they felt the need to redefine it into the singular.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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