Civilization question?

[rich]

Also - not saying these were not just being a retelling of a far more ancient tale that each tried to comprehend and retell - not that those particular characters were real in each of the religions.

[woodrabbit]

Rich,

I think its more genuine than that.

[Ishtar]

Well, of course we'll never know, because we weren't there.

But I have often wondered if the first beginnings of religion were when man didn't have time anymore to have his own relationship with the spirits (possibly because he was now a busy farmer rather than a wandering pastoralist).

So the tribe designated one man to work with the spirits that eventually became the spirits of the tribe, and then that one man went on to be the patriarch of a lineage...which eventually led to religion.

For instance, according to the OT, only those born in the lineage of Levi (the Levites) could see and worship the Holy of Holies, the Ark.

[rich]

Woodrabbit - please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying shamanism isn't genuine. Nor that the effect was caused on purpose. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Ish - it could be as you say also - a delegating so to speak. Or it could have been both causing it.

[rich]

The story of King Periphas of Attica (the eagle of Zeus) also comes to mind as an echo of this possibly. Hard to say.

[woodrabbit]

Rich, was implying genuine in the sense of the experential.

I think Ish may be on to something with priests showing up along with farming.

[rich]

You're probably right. I'm sure I have way less experience in this field than either of you. I was more or less just wondering out loud. Can't help it sometimes.
Anyways, gettin pretty late for me right now so - gotta get a catnap -
Have a good one, people!!!

[Ishtar]

Well, the difference between shamanism and religion is this:

If you look at much of religion today, you can see the same dynamic at work. There is a hierarchy like a pyramid, and the lower down the pyramid you are in the pecking order, the less you are required to think about the philosophy of that religion. (That's not to say that none of those in the lower stratas ever think about philosophical questions- just that they're not required to think about them and that those higher up the pyramid are not interested in their thoughts anyway).

So - by a process of evolution and natural selection, over time, religions will tend to attract those who don't want to think about the great questions, such as:

Why am I here?
How did I get here?
Where am I going after I die?
What am I supposed to be doing while I'm here?

So they hand their power over to others who will give them the answers and even better, do it all for them. For instance, they are told that nos 3 and 4 are automatically taken care of, so long as they stay on the bus.

Empowerment, on the other hand, which is what shamanic healing is about, is the opposite of this. The client or patients asks:

Why am I here?
How did I get here?
Where am I going after I die?
What am I supposed to be doing here?

and the shamanic practitioner replies:

"Those are very good and interesting questions, and I'm glad you raised them. Now I'm going to give you a technique where you can journey to find out the answers for yourself. And when you find those answers, it's entirely up to you what you do about them. Your life is your own."

That's one of the biggest differences between shamanism and religion today.

[woodrabbit]

Regarding the Shaman/Hunter - Priest/Famer split, have you guys checked out the "Gobekli Tepe" thread from the Discussion Forum. last entry April 22 from Beagle.

"Everybody used to think only complex, hierarchical civilizations could build such monumental sites [as Gobekli Tepe]and that they only came about with the invention of agriculture," said Ian Hodder, a Stanford University anthropology professor who has directed digs at Catalhoyuk, Turkey's most-famous Neolithic site, since 1993.

What makes the monuments of Gobekli Tepe remarkable are the carved reliefs of boars, foxes, lions, birds, snakes and scorpions that cover them, and their age. Dated at about 9500 B.C., these stones are 5,500 years older than the first cities of Mesopotamia and 7,000 years older than Stonehenge.

Nevermind wheels or writing, the people who erected them did not even have pottery or domesticated wheat. They lived in villages, but were hunters, not farmers.

Göbekli Tepe can be described as sacerdotal, in that it was clearly utilised as a place of veneration and perhaps communication with supernatural entities and domains. This is accepted by the main excavator Dr Klaus Schmidt of the German Aarchaeological Institute of Istanbul. Curiously, in the Turkish language Göbekli Tepe means 'hill of the naval', suggestive of the site's former role as an important religious centre serving a large catchment region.


How is it possibile that a hunter/gatherer society suddenly transforms itself to be able to build such a magnificent megalithic site with no equals in the world?

Oddly the site is so well preseved because it was purposely filled in. It may have been the hunter Shamanic tradition purposefully closing its door to an emerging agrarian priest class.

There is a link to a german film with amazing images from my post on this thread. I still can't quite take it in, its so contextless.

[Ishtar]

Fascinating. Could you kindly post the link to the film again, woodrabbit?

[Digit]

And whilst you were rolling around in the mud Ish I was sweating in a blue serge suit trying to keep you lot under control! Flower power!

[Ishtar]

Oh ...I thought your face was familiar!

[Ishtar]

Fascinating. Could you kindly post the link to the film again, woodrabbit?

Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU2qwoMfq-U&NR=1

Totally mind blowing, how advanced their techniques were.

If we go by Katherine Kenyon's dating for the progression from hunting and gathering to farming for Jericho, the Gobelki Tepe monuments are dated to well within the hunter gatherer date range of 10,000 - 8500 BC.

It's difficult for us to imagine the difference of effort expended to survive in a hunter gatherer society versus an agricultural one - both look like hard work to us!

But the writer Marshall Sahlins coined the phrase 'the original affluent society' about hunter gatherers. And Lorna Marshall, an anthropologist writing about the San Bushmen in the 1950s, described them as enjoying 'a kind of material plenty'....

So the farmer would have welcomed someone to take over his spiritual duties for him one imagines.

But there's also a case to be made that agricultural communities were originally set up in order to establish a permanent temple, rather than it being purely a natural outcome of the situation.

That would also explain these megalithic sites springing up, seemingly, from nowhere.

[Digit]

That argument has merit Ish. The oft quoted alternative that agriculture was to feed an expanding population doesn't fit with what we know about modern HG groups, who tend to limit there population via extended nursing, amongst other alternatives I would guess.

[Ishtar]

Agreed .... continuing with that idea, archaeologist Steven Mithen thinks the farming economy in the Gobekli Tepe region, grew out of the need to feed the workers who were building the temple.

None of the animals depicted on the Gobekli stones are domesticated types..they are all wild animals.

But about 30 kms to the south of Gobekli Tepe are the Black Mountains (Karacadag) which phylogenetic studies have shown is to be the original home of domesticated wheat.

So Mithen's theory is that these fields were deliberately cultivated in response to the need to feed not only the workers of Gobelki Tepe site, as well as the not so far away and similar ones at Nevali Cori and Cayonu, but also to feed those coming for ritual worship when, he postulates, huge crowds could have gathered.