Boats

[Cognito]

Min, start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columb ... alv.C3.A3o

And scroll down to Section 4 (ignore the comment about Mormons). It is feasible that people were blown off course and landed across the Atlantic but nothing came of it.

[Minimalist]

This account is open to some question, since Metellus Celer died just after his consulship, before he ever got to Gaul.

That does seem to make the account somewhat unlikely.

Don't worry about me and the mormons. I don't put much or even any stock in that.

We know that people have crossed the Atlantic in open boats. Once you get out into the Gulf Stream it is hard to avoid Europe if you are drifting.
Still, the odds that someone could survive such a trip seem small...if for no other reason than they would never have been able to bring along enough fresh water to survive. But a decked sailing ship, provisioned for a decent journey anyway and running with the wind would seem a much more reasonable proposition.

[Cognito]

Ah yes, on the topic of boats and early voyages to America I was looking for and found the the following:

Aristotle (384-322bc - On the Constitution of Carthage):

"In the sea outside the Pillars of Hercules they say that an island was found by the Carthaginians, a wilderness having wood of all kinds and navigable rivers, remarkable for various kinds of fruits, and many day' sailing away. When the Carthaginians, who were masters of the western ocean observed that many traders and other men, attracted by the fertility of the soil and the pleasant climate, frequented it because of its richness, and some resided there, they feared that knowledge of this land would reach other nations, and that a great concourse to it of men from various lands of the earth would follow. Therefore, lest the Carthaginian Empire itself should suffer injury, and the dominion of the sea be wrestled from their hands, the Senate of Carthage issued a decree that no one, under penalty of death, should thereafter sail thither, and they massacred all who resided there."

Diodorus Siculus (90-21bc - Bilbliotheca Historica):

"Over against Africa lies a very great island in the vast Ocean, many days' sail from Libya westward. The soil there is very fruitful, a great deal whereof is mountainous, but much likewise a plain, which is the most sweet and pleasant part, for it is watered with several navigable rivers. . . The mountainous part of the country is clothed with very large woods, and all manner of fruit trees and springs of fresh water . . . There you may have game enough in hunting all sorts of wild beasts . . . This island seems rather to be the residence of some of the gods, than of men."

I will look for translations of the original texts. If you needed to get somewhere in the ancient world, you hired Phoenician sailors.

[Minimalist]

Of course, both Aristotle and Diodorus Siculus also wrote about Atlantis!

[Cognito]

Yes, true. However, Aristotle simply commented that he thought Plato made up the story of Atlantis to prove a point.

[Digit]

“So it is a real exercise to get across, and the magnitude of that is illustrated by the fact that, before anatomically modern humans made the leap, no large-bodied animal ever got all the way across.”

Don't I recall somebody making this very point on this forum several times in the past?

[Rokcet Scientist]

Aristotle (384-322bc - On the Constitution of Carthage):

"In the sea outside the Pillars of Hercules they say that an island was found by the Carthaginians, a wilderness having wood of all kinds and navigable rivers, remarkable for various kinds of fruits, and many day' sailing away. When the Carthaginians, who were masters of the western ocean observed that many traders and other men, attracted by the fertility of the soil and the pleasant climate, frequented it because of its richness, and some resided there, they feared that knowledge of this land would reach other nations, and that a great concourse to it of men from various lands of the earth would follow. Therefore, lest the Carthaginian Empire itself should suffer injury, and the dominion of the sea be wrestled from their hands, the Senate of Carthage issued a decree that no one, under penalty of death, should thereafter sail thither, and they massacred all who resided there."

Diodorus Siculus (90-21bc - Bilbliotheca Historica):

"Over against Africa lies a very great island in the vast Ocean, many days' sail from Libya westward. The soil there is very fruitful, a great deal whereof is mountainous, but much likewise a plain, which is the most sweet and pleasant part, for it is watered with several navigable rivers. . . The mountainous part of the country is clothed with very large woods, and all manner of fruit trees and springs of fresh water . . . There you may have game enough in hunting all sorts of wild beasts . . . This island seems rather to be the residence of some of the gods, than of men."

My kneejerk reaction to those would be to note that it looks like Diodorus knew his Aristotle.

[Minimalist]

The Carthaginians did sail down the African Coast....probably as far as the Congo River.

"Following the rivers of fire for three further days, we reached a gulf named the Southern Horn. In the gulf lay an island with a lake, and in it another island. The second island was full of wild people. By far the greater number were women with hairy bodies. We gave chase to the men but could not catch any, for they all scampered up steep rocks and pelted us with stones."

—The Phoenician explorer Hanno encountering apes for the first time along the coast of West Africa, 5th century BC

[Forum Monk]

Funny. Reading that, I had the impression they were describing north america. Maybe atlantis was/is america.

[Cognito]

Diodorus knew his Aristotle

Add to the list Plutarch, Polybius and Herodotus. More importantly than who copied what from whom would be the persistent stories of a huge landmass to the west, but far enough away that it wasn't easy sailing.

Yes, Roman goods were being traded with India and China, but there were plenty of freight-forwarders along the way there and back. Can't do that across the Atlantic and the potential profits are mitigated by the fleet never returning. That risk was finally addressed by a strong English merchant class forming joint venture companies to share the possibility of failure.

[Rokcet Scientist]

The Carthaginians did sail down the African Coast....probably as far as the Congo River.

Wouldn't surprise me if they maintained regular trade with the New World too. Somebody did. And the Phoenicians are the primary candidates, imo. Did they buy into the Atlantis legend? Or weren't the early Phoenician explorers' tales maybe a source for Plato a millennium later?

[Cognito]

There were 700,000 people living in Carthage before the Romans razed the city in 146bc and sowed salt into the earth. Those who survived went somewhere and I doubt they went east.

R/S, you raise a good point. Thera was part of the Phoenician trade network when it blew in 1628bc - maybe the Greeks picked up the Atlantis myth from them a thousand years later.

[Minimalist]

Those who survived went somewhere

The auction block. Slavery was big in Rome.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Those who survived went somewhere

The auction block. Slavery was big in Rome.

True.
But 700,000 of conquered slaves entering the Roman Empire in one great wave following 146 BC would have been a recepy for civil strain. I doubt the Romans would've taken that risk.
What about it, Min? Does Roman lit mention the aftermath of 146 BC?

[Minimalist]

First of....all ancient stats must be taken with a huge grain of salt....or grano salis, if you prefer Latin.