Syro-Palestinian Archaeology

rich · Post by **rich** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:55 am

Uh - and here I figured Moses was supposed to be symbolic of the Shaman leading the spirits on the 40 day journey to the promised land in the exodus story and that while the Egyptians drowned in the sea of thoughts, emotions, and knowledge that flow thru the mind the chosen people would travel safely through it to the other side because they had a guide. And the burning bush was supposed to be related to the fennel stalk that Prometheus carried the burning coal of knowledge to mankind on and it related to Moses staff. I guess I just can't seem to get it right. Eh - what can I say?

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:02 pm

This is not about right or wrong.

I'm describing the intepretation of the Gnostics as that is what the discussion is about.

There's bound to be other interpretations, but they're not relevant here.

rich · Post by **rich** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:06 pm

Didn't say it was about right or wrong - but you are right - it can have many interpretations. Just figured since you were into Shamanic stuff - - that's all I meant.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:13 pm

rich wrote:Didn't say it was about right or wrong -

rich wrote:I guess I just can't seem to get it right. Eh - what can I say?

You're muddying the waters.

rich · Post by **rich** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:18 pm

Uh - sorry - was just trying to give food for thought. But - no problem. I'll get out of the pool.

seeker · Post by **seeker** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:56 pm

Nice discussion.

I agree with Ish, there was a very widespread belief that a messiah was due any minute and that belief was independent and prior to Christianity. The fact that the details about the alleged messiah get more elaborate as time passed are a pretty clear indication that the story was being made up.

The Jewish temples in Egypt have always been real interesting when you consider the Highlander aspect of the Jewish Temple (there can only be one). Especially when they show signs of Babylonian polytheism

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:46 pm

In "The Sign and the Seal" Graham Hancock used the existence of the Elephantine Is temple as proof that orthodox elements had smuggled the Ark out of Jerusalem during the reign of Manesseh.

Unless, of course, all that stuff was made up after the fact.

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:37 pm

The Bible Unearthed Video Part I

A nine-part special on Israel Finkelstein's book of the same name. This is anathema to fundies because it shows the archaeological evidence which has overturned a century's old house of cards which was constructed by early scholars to "prove" the bible correct. Maybe if they had not wasted so much time setting unrealistic goals for an old book of fables it would not now have fallen so far.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Oe1UAE ... re=related

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:55 pm

There is a short tenth segment as well.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:28 pm

I'm pretty sure there was no Ark of the Covenant with divine powers as such. The Hebrews were told that only sons of Levi were pure enough to stand in its inner sanctum and that anyone else would be killed by God should they try to do so. This gave the Levi family some good business for a number of years until the Priestly tradition took over, and they found out that God has changed his mind and so the sons of Levi got the sack and then only the sons of Aaron could stand in the inner sanctum. (I guess the sons of Aaron were offering to pay more!).

Of course, this is all hogwash and religion at its worse, carving up the power positions.

But an ark shaped box supported with poles is another matter. These I believe were used in processions and I've even seen an Egyptian one, found in one of the pyramids. And also interestingly, Levi is an Egyptian name (as is Moses).

So, as Alice would say, curiouser and curiouser!

Post by **Minimalist** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:52 pm

Ishtar wrote:I'm pretty sure there was no Ark of the Covenant with divine powers as such. The Hebrews were told that only sons of Levi were pure enough to stand in its inner sanctum and that anyone else would be killed by God should they try to do so. This gave the Levi family some good business for a number of years until the Priestly tradition took over, and they found out that God has changed his mind and so the sons of Levi got the sack and then only the sons of Aaron could stand in the inner sanctum. (I guess the sons of Aaron were offering to pay more!).

Doubtlessly told BY the sons of Levi....who probably bought the concession

Of course, this is all hogwash and religion at its worse, carving up the power positions.

But an ark shaped box supported with poles is another matter. These I believe were used in processions and I've even seen an Egyptian one, found in one of the pyramids. And also interestingly, Levi is an Egyptian name (as is Moses).

The Apet Festival held at Luxor. Several such boxes were found in Tutanhkamun's tomb. I don't think anything has ever been found in a pyramid, per se. There are reliefs of such a parade. BTW, the Romans had a ceremony in which statues of the gods were paraded around on couches, according to Livius. Similar idea.

So, as Alice would say, curiouser and curiouser!

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Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:00 pm

I've seen a photo of an actual ark-like box with poles, I think Min, in an Egyptian tomb. I'll see if I can dig it out later.

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:59 am

Minimalist wrote:The Bible Unearthed Video Part I
A nine-part special on Israel Finkelstein's book of the same name. This is anathema to fundies because it shows the archaeological evidence which has overturned a centuries-old house of cards which was constructed by early scholars to "prove" the bible correct. Maybe if they had not wasted so much time setting unrealistic goals for an old book of fables it would not now have fallen so far.
Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Oe1UAE ... re=related

Min, I watched Part 1 and so far, I think that Silberman and Finkestein are a bit of a way from proving that the archaeological evidence "has overturned a centuries-old house of cards which was constructed by early scholars to 'prove' the bible correct."

The first part concentrates on proving Abraham didn't exist solely on a lack of archaeo evidence for a migration trail from northern Mesopotamia and also for such a figure at that time.

But it's well known that getting evidence on migration trails is notoriously difficult as much of what would have been left would have easily biograded by now. Same for finding evidence of one figure in history. So imo, neither of these two are sufficient for saying you have proof, or even evidence, that Abram (or Jesus for that matter) did not exist.

A far better way, imo, is to show that if you 'zoom out' and look at the mythologies of other neighbouring regions at the time, then the Jesus story doesn't seem so unique.

The Gnostics were cross border, cosmopolitan and polyglot in their attitudes, which is why their mythology is so similar to that of Greece and Egypt - and the Literalists just stole it for their own political purposes.

Gnostics were also much more accepting of other peoples' mythologies because they were more likely to focus on what they had in common. But Literalists always saw the differences rather than the commonalities, which is why it was the Literalists that caused the wars at that time.

Philo of Alexandra was a Gnostic Jew who lived and taught in Alexandria from the period 20 BC onwards. He taught the mystical meaning of the Logos (Word), which is in the first verse of John: "In the beginning was the Word etc.." The Literalist Church hijacked the meaning of the Logos or Word and to this day, claims it is the Word of God aka The Bible - which has no logic at all given that the Bible did not exist when John was written, let alone "in the beginning"!

In my view, the main reason the Literalist Jewish and Christian religions has had a grip on Western civilisation for so long is because they insisted on the lie of their uniqueness - the chosen people etc, no non Gentiles (before Paul) - thus discouraging anyone to take a wider view and look beyond the borders of Israel, and see their stories in context.

I've started a new thread in Mythologies called Philo's Guide to Decoding the Hebrew Bible. He saw it as primarily allegorical although literal in parts as well - and then he gives a list of features to look out for, to tell if a passage is allegorical. Just click on the link: http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... 9791#49791

Post by **Minimalist** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:02 am

They don't believe in mysticism any more than I do, Ish.

The book does a much better job but the video is fun. Later on, Baruch Halpern and Ami Mazar show up to explain how totally non-monotheistic early Canaanite religion was.

You-know-who will have a fit!

Ishtar · Post by **Ishtar** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:13 am

You or they don't have to believe in mysticism. I hope everyone understands that I'm not trying to convince people that they should believe in Gnosticism or mysticism.

That's not my point.

You only have to know that they (the Gnostics) believed in it, to show how it was the original Christianity and thus Jesus was not a historical figure.

That's all ...