Villa of the Papyri

[Grumpage]

The article in The Australian reminded me about this remarkable library.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 32,00.html

For my money this is one of the most exciting archaeological sites around. The prospects for its future development however seem to be pretty dire so it’s all down to the scrolls already retrieved. Let’s hope the money doesn’t run out.

Who knows what lies beneath the lava? It’s a sobering thought that, for example, the oldest complete Iliad is 1000CE while from the time of the villa there’s only fragments. Homer’s down there, I’m sure of it.

Maybe what’s needed to get things moving is a Mafioso with plenty of pull and a passion for archaeology

[Ishtar]

The Villa of the Papyri is believed to have been owned by Roman statesman Lucius Calpurnius Piso, father-in-law of Julius Caesar. He was a man of wealth and refined taste. Like many members of the Roman elite of the time, Piso looked back fondly to the glories of ancient Greece. His library, written mostly in Greek, was dominated by works of the Epicurean school, which sought a salve for the troubled soul in the taming of runaway desire.

Epicurus, the creed's founder, was a fourth century BC atomist philosopher with an atheistic bent and a medicinal aim. He wanted to remedy human pain in this life rather than prepare sufferers for the next. "Nothing to fear in God," he wrote, displaying a talent for pithy distillation. "Nothing to feel in death. Good can be attained. Evil can be endured."

Shortly before 300BC Epicurus withdrew his followers to a commune outside Athens, known to all as The Garden. Friendship and frugality were its guiding principles. In fact, Epicurus would regard the modern use of the adjective epicurean as a travesty of his ideals. "Plain fare gives us as much pleasure as a costly diet," he said. True pleasure for Epicurus was a "pot of cheese", though he was thought to enjoy a tipple from a wineskin.

Ancient gossip links him with a fellow communard called Mammarion (big breasts), which only shows that the sage was human.

Epicureanism takes up a radical position in the Hellenistic world, standing apart from the philosophical mainstream. When Paul addresses the Athenians, in Acts 17 of the Bible, he speaks of Epicureans and Stoics in the same breath. Christianity, naturally, set itself firmly against Epicurean materialism and its implicit atheism. But the Stoics were equally stern disputants. Epicureans, as a result, found themselves traduced by their fellow pagans and damned by the early church. The Garden, nevertheless, flourished for some eight centuries.

"Epicurus's philosophy exercised so widespread an influence that for a long time it was touch and go whether Christianity might not have to give way before it," writes Lawrence Durrell in a tone of lament.

These manuscripts could give us some much needed clues about Literal Christianity's place in Rome during the early centuries.

[Minimalist]

From 79 AD to 70, which is which is presumed the earliest date for the earliest gospel of "Mark" only leaves a window of 9 years for the Piso clan to acquire references to any so-called xtians.

Since Pliny, also a Roman aristocrat and living 30 years later did not seem to know anything about xtians prior to being assigned to Bithynia-Pontus the likelihood of finding any xtian documents in Piso's library seems astonishingly small.

However, they should do what they can to recover the scrolls because they may actually find something important.

[Ishtar]

But Min, you know how we're hearing from Eusebius and Philo about 'Christian' documents in Alexandria with the Theraputae, and the 'Christian' teachings of the Essenes, well before the so-called Christian era?

You never know, we might find the nativity here!

I think it is a mistake to buy the date of 1 - 32 CE for the birth of the Christian era ... the whole story was made up and so was the date.

[Grumpage]

the likelihood of finding any xtian documents in Piso's library seems astonishingly small.

Yes, but I would put it at even less than that. Why should Piso spend time and money in collecting, copying, and archiving material about a peculiar new sect that was irrelevant to his times and, almost certainly, to his interests? Surely, he would have had better ways of wasting his time.

[Minimalist]

I agree that he probably did not but one never knows what references other authors may have made. The chances of finding a specific book about early christianity are exceedingly small.

And, Ish, 32 doesn't matter. If the first "gospel" dates from 70 ( which seems likely since it refers to the destruction of Jerusalem ) and since the whole jesus story seems to date from that gospel it is even less likely that there would be something written about pre-christians.

Recall that Philo and Pliny the Elder wrote extensively in the first century as did Seneca. Philo wrote about Jewish matters and does not mention any jesus. Pliny wrote about "science" (such as he knew it) and doesn't mention any rumors about anyone coming back from the dead. Seneca died in 65 and does not mention any such philosophy. What are the odds that Calpurnius Piso had a book in his library that dealt with the subject that one of the other 3 did not know of?

[Ishtar]

I don't want to labour this point as it was only an aside ... but ...

I believe it is a mistake to think that the earliest Christian writings can come from is the first century when we have already found Christian writings with the Essenes, the Theraputae and the Zadokites at least a century before 1 CE. They are Christian writings in all but name ...

The roots of Christianity can also be partly found in the Greek philosophical schools and Epicurus was a Greek philosopher.

We have all been conned by the Literalists' Jesus story to look for evidence for it in the wrong place and the wrong time.

Jesus never lived anywhere and at any time or in any place - and he most definitely did not live in Jerusalem in the first century.

Imo, we need to explode this false BCE/CE dam across the river of time, if we are ever to progress with the subject of the true roots of Christianity.

And as for the dating of Mark to 70AD ... I think it's so much hogwash. It could have been written at any time after the sacking of the temple - and it is not attested until Iranaeus in 180 CE.

[Minimalist]

I don't quite agree with you, Ish. Historically, there does not seem to be a 'literalist' movement until the 70's. The Essenes do not seem to have believed in the jesus tale but that does not stop anyone from taking their doctrines and putting it (almost word for word) into the mouth of their new hero. A caterpillar becomes a moth, too.

I can actually see good reasons for this. The other groups, sadduccees, pharisees and zealots all play a major role in the revolt but Josephus is curiously silent about the Essenes view of what was going on. Maybe they were conscientious objectors?

[Ishtar]

The point I've been trying to make is that Christianity, in its Gnostic form, existed before Literalism, and the literalists are the only ones saying that the Jesus story is true, when it wasn't... so we can't date anything on a lie.

Jesus existed as a mythological character long before the Literalists got hold of him and tried to make him a historical figure. The name Jesus is an anglicised version of Iēsous, which is Greek for the Hebrew Yehoshua (Joshua), the same Joshua the led the 12 tribes to the Promised Land in the OT - this is the Jesus that the Essenes followed, the one that Justin Martyr called the Jesus of the Old Testament.

Remember this:



It is a waste of time searching in history for a mythological figure. We cannot attest anything from Mark when the whole work is a piece of fiction anyway, just like the rest of the Literalists' stories.

That's why the current timeline doesn't work - it's based on fiction. Once you go beyond it, you see that it was just an illusion. The teachings that Christianity were based on go back much further than 1 CE.

But anyway, I don't want to take up much more Grumpage's thread with this as we're going OT ... let's continue this in the Philo thread, if you still want to disagree with me.

[popelane24]

I found this article to be the most interesting of the news for me over the past few months. Today I was reading Durant's "Heroes of History", which for me and my studies was actually a bit of a primer, having cared nothing for Greece or Rome for so long....

Anyways, Durant speaks of the philosophies the Greeks in such a manner that I am wonderfully amazed at their contributions to the world! Here I can reflect on what has made society great....

Anyways, such a treasure as a potential library waiting underground ought NOT go ignored! I am wondering, who is actually BACKING the possibility of this dig, who are those pushing to salvage what they can? (Besides those mentioned, surely a push must have grown by now!)

And most importantly, is there anything we as amateurs, laypeople, students, etc, can do? Surely some of you reading this will join me in my search to find what I, myself, can do.

When enough people get together and work towards a common cause, letting nothing stand in the way, anything can happen. I believe this would be a treasure as good as the Dead Sea Scrolls.....

I started this morning with Durant's discourses running through my head, and it served to remind me of how precious History is.

Lets not waste our time. I know its worth my effort!

Shalom,

-Lane

[Minimalist]

Do you have a link to the article, Pope?

[Grumpage]

Isn't pope referring to the article which kicked off this thread?

[Minimalist]

I wasn't sure.

[popelane24]

Sorry guys, I was reffereing to the beginning article... here it is again.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 32,00.html

[Minimalist]

OK, my fault. The thread was so old I thought you might have been referring to an update.