Listeros,
The fossil bones of a woman dated at 13,600 years old have been uncovered in the area of Tulum. This would make her the oldest human ever found in the Americas. She was between 30-40 years old at death.
Milenio has the story here in Spanish. I will send out any posting of this very important story in English that I see.
There are a few skulls that are claimed to be older but they were not found in situ as this woman's bones were.
Thanks to Erik Boot who sent me this heads up.
Mike Ruggeri
http://www.milenio.com/mexico/milenio/n ... ?id=650772
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
OLDEST HUMAN EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS UNCOVERED
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OLDEST HUMAN EVER FOUND IN THE AMERICAS ENGLISH TRANSLATION
Listeros,
Bruce Rogers provides us with an English translation of the Milenio article I posted yesterday.
Mike Ruggeri
"Eve of Naranan" (of Tulum), the oldest woman of the American continent announced at the Early Wo/Man in America symposium
By Leticia Sánchez, August 13, 2008
"Eva de Naharon" was 45 years old when she died and measured 1.41 meters high. Her bones have rested for 13,600 years say specialists.
The last 95,000 years of history of the wo/men are not as well known as the last 5,000 years of documented humanity. However, Mexico has contributed with the finding and dating of the oldest remains found of the continent in Naharon, Quintana Roo.
[[The Systema de Naranjal- Orange Grove Cave - is No. 4 in length in Mexico with about 24,257 meters of passage descending to a depth of 34.7 m below its entrance just above sea level (~2.76 miles x 114 ft.). There are 8 cenote entrances to this system. Data from A./T. Kampe as of April/May of 2008. <http://www.caves.org/project/qrss/qrlong.htm>
These caves caves have formed in Cretaceous and Tertiary Period limestone (~144 million to 2 million years old) some 3,400 m thick. The caves themselves started forming about 125,000 years ago when sea level was approximately 125 m (~400 ft.) below its present level. About 18,000 years ago sea level started slowly rising. This subsequent, slow sea level rise, stabilizing at about 7,000 years ago, flooded most of these caves, thus requiring SCUBA gear to explore, plus a slight propensity toward insanity.]]
These remains belonged to a woman 45 years of age, a meter, 41 centimeters of stature and a weight of 53 kilograms. A carbon 14 date shows her remains are 13,600 years old, turns which her into the "Senior Woman" of the region, even older than the "Mujer de Penon de los Banos (Woman of the Rock Baths)," who is approximately 12,600 years old.
Arthur González, director of the Coahuila Desert Museum; the anthropologist Jiménez Conception, Director of Physical Anthropology inthe INAH; anthropologist Gabriel Saucedo of the National Institute of Medical Sciences; and Nutricion Salvador Zubirán, will announce the find of this early wo/man at the Fourth International Symposium of Early Man in the Americas that will be held from the 18 to the 22 of August at the Mexican National Museum of Anthropology.
In this forum, investigations like this one will assist giving answers to the problem of peopling the continent.
Also participating will be Carlos Lorenzo, member of the equipment of Eudald Carbonell, in Atapuerca, Spain, one of the more important archaeological sites of the human evolution.
Also participating will be Argentine investigator Luis Lanata who maintains that the human groups arrived in America more than 18,000 years ago.
One of the displays that will call further attention to the early peopling of the Americas is one presented by James Chatters about the Kenewick Man whose remains have generated much controversy by their population affiliation.
Tulum in history
Two weeks ago in the World Congress of Archaeology in Ireland, the discovery of "Eva of Naharon" was announced by a spokesman for paleontologist Arthur González. The remains were located in clear water in a cave located to 44.5 (~27 mi.) kilometers to the southwest of the town of Tulum, in the Orange Grove Cave System.
In this place, explained the paleontologist, was the partially complete skeleton of a woman between 30 and 40 years of age, 1.41 meters (about 4 ft. 7 inches) tall and weighing about 53 kilograms (117 lbs.).
From the bones of Naharon, a 14carbon date was obtained, through Accelerated Mass Spectrometer (AMS) techniques, which gave an age of 13,600 years.
González explained that the collagen found in the bone cavities was in poor state of preservation. Thus the specialists at Oxford University and University of California Berkeley had to work with little the material obtained from the bones, which had remained under the water for more than 13 thousand years.
"We did not know that Ice Age man had left us in Tulum, the funeral testimony of a woman who died at age 45 and has an antiquity of 13,600 years," added Arthur González.
The discovery was not fortuitous, but is part of the work on the Archaeological Atlas Project in the (Quintana roo) region. The entrance was accessed through a natural well (cenote) of 30 by 45 meters (98 x 148 ft.) in diameter. The human bones were located to 368 meters (1207 ft.) from the entrance of the next oquedad, also called Naharon , at a depth of 22.6 meters (74 ft.).
In reference to this finding, the anthropologist Conception Jiménez, indicated that until a few years ago the oldest human remains in the Americas were those of the "Mujer de Penon" - Woman of the Rock Baths, dated to 12,600 years old eight years ago in 2000 by the 14carbon methods. It was remembered that that woman's bones were found in an unarticulated state when Mr. Tereso Hernandez dug a well in his property in the Mexico City.
In the grand scheme of things, Arthur González, indicated that more archaeologists, biologists, and paleontologists interested in the study of the origin of the man are needed.
Bruce Rogers provides us with an English translation of the Milenio article I posted yesterday.
Mike Ruggeri
"Eve of Naranan" (of Tulum), the oldest woman of the American continent announced at the Early Wo/Man in America symposium
By Leticia Sánchez, August 13, 2008
"Eva de Naharon" was 45 years old when she died and measured 1.41 meters high. Her bones have rested for 13,600 years say specialists.
The last 95,000 years of history of the wo/men are not as well known as the last 5,000 years of documented humanity. However, Mexico has contributed with the finding and dating of the oldest remains found of the continent in Naharon, Quintana Roo.
[[The Systema de Naranjal- Orange Grove Cave - is No. 4 in length in Mexico with about 24,257 meters of passage descending to a depth of 34.7 m below its entrance just above sea level (~2.76 miles x 114 ft.). There are 8 cenote entrances to this system. Data from A./T. Kampe as of April/May of 2008. <http://www.caves.org/project/qrss/qrlong.htm>
These caves caves have formed in Cretaceous and Tertiary Period limestone (~144 million to 2 million years old) some 3,400 m thick. The caves themselves started forming about 125,000 years ago when sea level was approximately 125 m (~400 ft.) below its present level. About 18,000 years ago sea level started slowly rising. This subsequent, slow sea level rise, stabilizing at about 7,000 years ago, flooded most of these caves, thus requiring SCUBA gear to explore, plus a slight propensity toward insanity.]]
These remains belonged to a woman 45 years of age, a meter, 41 centimeters of stature and a weight of 53 kilograms. A carbon 14 date shows her remains are 13,600 years old, turns which her into the "Senior Woman" of the region, even older than the "Mujer de Penon de los Banos (Woman of the Rock Baths)," who is approximately 12,600 years old.
Arthur González, director of the Coahuila Desert Museum; the anthropologist Jiménez Conception, Director of Physical Anthropology inthe INAH; anthropologist Gabriel Saucedo of the National Institute of Medical Sciences; and Nutricion Salvador Zubirán, will announce the find of this early wo/man at the Fourth International Symposium of Early Man in the Americas that will be held from the 18 to the 22 of August at the Mexican National Museum of Anthropology.
In this forum, investigations like this one will assist giving answers to the problem of peopling the continent.
Also participating will be Carlos Lorenzo, member of the equipment of Eudald Carbonell, in Atapuerca, Spain, one of the more important archaeological sites of the human evolution.
Also participating will be Argentine investigator Luis Lanata who maintains that the human groups arrived in America more than 18,000 years ago.
One of the displays that will call further attention to the early peopling of the Americas is one presented by James Chatters about the Kenewick Man whose remains have generated much controversy by their population affiliation.
Tulum in history
Two weeks ago in the World Congress of Archaeology in Ireland, the discovery of "Eva of Naharon" was announced by a spokesman for paleontologist Arthur González. The remains were located in clear water in a cave located to 44.5 (~27 mi.) kilometers to the southwest of the town of Tulum, in the Orange Grove Cave System.
In this place, explained the paleontologist, was the partially complete skeleton of a woman between 30 and 40 years of age, 1.41 meters (about 4 ft. 7 inches) tall and weighing about 53 kilograms (117 lbs.).
From the bones of Naharon, a 14carbon date was obtained, through Accelerated Mass Spectrometer (AMS) techniques, which gave an age of 13,600 years.
González explained that the collagen found in the bone cavities was in poor state of preservation. Thus the specialists at Oxford University and University of California Berkeley had to work with little the material obtained from the bones, which had remained under the water for more than 13 thousand years.
"We did not know that Ice Age man had left us in Tulum, the funeral testimony of a woman who died at age 45 and has an antiquity of 13,600 years," added Arthur González.
The discovery was not fortuitous, but is part of the work on the Archaeological Atlas Project in the (Quintana roo) region. The entrance was accessed through a natural well (cenote) of 30 by 45 meters (98 x 148 ft.) in diameter. The human bones were located to 368 meters (1207 ft.) from the entrance of the next oquedad, also called Naharon , at a depth of 22.6 meters (74 ft.).
In reference to this finding, the anthropologist Conception Jiménez, indicated that until a few years ago the oldest human remains in the Americas were those of the "Mujer de Penon" - Woman of the Rock Baths, dated to 12,600 years old eight years ago in 2000 by the 14carbon methods. It was remembered that that woman's bones were found in an unarticulated state when Mr. Tereso Hernandez dug a well in his property in the Mexico City.
In the grand scheme of things, Arthur González, indicated that more archaeologists, biologists, and paleontologists interested in the study of the origin of the man are needed.
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thus requiring SCUBA gear to explore, plus a slight propensity toward insanity.
45 years old back then must have seemed like eternity.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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michaelruggeri
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OLDEST HUMAN FOUND IN THE AMERICAS ASIAN IN ORIGIN
Listeros,
I have found an article published in June by INAH about the skeletons found in the Quintana Roo cenote and before they got a radio carbon date on the woman who has turned out to be the oldest human ever found in the Americas. The article indicates that there were 3 other skeletons found and they have Asian characteristics. I will re-print the whole article since it may be difficult to link to the original article.
Mike Ruggeri
Fourth Pleistocene skeleton discovered at Maya Riviera, Quintana Roo
Human bones found in a submerged cavern at Quintana Roo Mexican state represent an important contribution to investigations related to the presence of early man in America, and Mexico Southeast, informed biologist Arturo Gonzalez Gonzalez, director of the project “Pre ceramic human groups in Quintana Roo”, through systematic register of evidences found submerged at flooded caves.
Along with Quintana Roo INAH archaeologist Carmen Rojas Sandoval, the biologist stated that the salvage of this skeleton represented an important challenge for the interdisciplinary investigation team gathered by INAH.
Quintana Roo Speleological Survey (QRSS) founded 3 skeletons in the same area between 2003 and 2005. This time, speleo-diver Robbie Smithers collaborates as a QRSS member.
Located 550 yards away from the cave entrance and submerged, the bones presented a fragile condition; “ the skeleton recently found will be meticulously registered in situ, before its removal from the flooded rocky bed; this requires many immersions and more than a year,” stated Arturo Gonzalez.
The skull conserves 10 teeth, which will help us date it by means of Carbon 13 tests: “ we can find out how they fed, if their diet was composed mainly of sea or land animals”, commented the biologist.
Arturo Gonzalez, who also is director of the Dessert Museum in Coahuila, explained this finding sums up o other 3 skeletons found in the Riviera Maya region; all four compound the Ice Age skeleton collection of Mexico, one of the oldest in America.
Dating of this anthropological material determined these persons lived 8,000 to 13,000 years ago. The age given to these skeletons is similar to the one established for the ones Tom Dillehay found in southern Chile, and to some found in Alaska and northern USA.
“Humankind appearing at the same time in the continent does not seem possible. We are still far from understanding humankind history in America. This new evidence makes invalid most accepted theories about how America was inhabited”, expressed Arturo Gonzalez.
One theory suggests that humans crossed from Europe by sea, passing through Greenland to North America. Other theory affirms they crossed from northern Asia to America through strait of Bering. A third one points out Polynesian groups arrived to South America by sea.
Gonzalez Gonzalez and National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) MD Alejandro Terrazas declared that physical anthropology studies reveal is that skeletons are not related to Maya groups, but to Asian, specifically, from regions near India.
“The place where we found the skeleton determines that Ice Age humans looked for locations far away from the entrance to place their departed, which was not a common practice in America at that point. Two skeletons were found in a flexed position: this signals they were moved here by other persons, which makes them ritual burials”.
“We must remember these caves were not flooded when humans used them by the end of Pleistocene, at least 10,000 years ago. At that time, tiny water drops formed stalactites and stalagmites inside the caves”.
Yucatan area was different to the jungle we see, looking more as a desert prairie; people and animals looked for shelter and water in the deep segments of caverns.
Arturo Gonzalez concluded the Cenote projects that began 10 years ago place Mexico as a pioneer in submerged underground systems archaeological registration. The results are well known worldwide and “Nature” and “National Geographic” magazines have published articles on this regard.
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/
I have found an article published in June by INAH about the skeletons found in the Quintana Roo cenote and before they got a radio carbon date on the woman who has turned out to be the oldest human ever found in the Americas. The article indicates that there were 3 other skeletons found and they have Asian characteristics. I will re-print the whole article since it may be difficult to link to the original article.
Mike Ruggeri
Fourth Pleistocene skeleton discovered at Maya Riviera, Quintana Roo
Human bones found in a submerged cavern at Quintana Roo Mexican state represent an important contribution to investigations related to the presence of early man in America, and Mexico Southeast, informed biologist Arturo Gonzalez Gonzalez, director of the project “Pre ceramic human groups in Quintana Roo”, through systematic register of evidences found submerged at flooded caves.
Along with Quintana Roo INAH archaeologist Carmen Rojas Sandoval, the biologist stated that the salvage of this skeleton represented an important challenge for the interdisciplinary investigation team gathered by INAH.
Quintana Roo Speleological Survey (QRSS) founded 3 skeletons in the same area between 2003 and 2005. This time, speleo-diver Robbie Smithers collaborates as a QRSS member.
Located 550 yards away from the cave entrance and submerged, the bones presented a fragile condition; “ the skeleton recently found will be meticulously registered in situ, before its removal from the flooded rocky bed; this requires many immersions and more than a year,” stated Arturo Gonzalez.
The skull conserves 10 teeth, which will help us date it by means of Carbon 13 tests: “ we can find out how they fed, if their diet was composed mainly of sea or land animals”, commented the biologist.
Arturo Gonzalez, who also is director of the Dessert Museum in Coahuila, explained this finding sums up o other 3 skeletons found in the Riviera Maya region; all four compound the Ice Age skeleton collection of Mexico, one of the oldest in America.
Dating of this anthropological material determined these persons lived 8,000 to 13,000 years ago. The age given to these skeletons is similar to the one established for the ones Tom Dillehay found in southern Chile, and to some found in Alaska and northern USA.
“Humankind appearing at the same time in the continent does not seem possible. We are still far from understanding humankind history in America. This new evidence makes invalid most accepted theories about how America was inhabited”, expressed Arturo Gonzalez.
One theory suggests that humans crossed from Europe by sea, passing through Greenland to North America. Other theory affirms they crossed from northern Asia to America through strait of Bering. A third one points out Polynesian groups arrived to South America by sea.
Gonzalez Gonzalez and National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM) MD Alejandro Terrazas declared that physical anthropology studies reveal is that skeletons are not related to Maya groups, but to Asian, specifically, from regions near India.
“The place where we found the skeleton determines that Ice Age humans looked for locations far away from the entrance to place their departed, which was not a common practice in America at that point. Two skeletons were found in a flexed position: this signals they were moved here by other persons, which makes them ritual burials”.
“We must remember these caves were not flooded when humans used them by the end of Pleistocene, at least 10,000 years ago. At that time, tiny water drops formed stalactites and stalagmites inside the caves”.
Yucatan area was different to the jungle we see, looking more as a desert prairie; people and animals looked for shelter and water in the deep segments of caverns.
Arturo Gonzalez concluded the Cenote projects that began 10 years ago place Mexico as a pioneer in submerged underground systems archaeological registration. The results are well known worldwide and “Nature” and “National Geographic” magazines have published articles on this regard.
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/
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Minimalist
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“Humankind appearing at the same time in the continent does not seem possible.
It makes sense if one discards the only-walked-across-the-land-bridge theory and allows for boats. In fact, separate groups arriving by boat would likely have different points of landfall and would move out from the point of landing.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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Rokcet Scientist
They would have had different points in time of that landfall too. And those occasions could have been tens of thousands of years apart. And if HE was the global explorer I think he was – and using boats! – even hundreds of thousands of years apart! HE got to Java and Peking, 800,000 years ago. We know that. So why not to America?Minimalist wrote:It makes sense if one discards the only-walked-across-the-land-bridge theory and allows for boats. In fact, separate groups arriving by boat would likely have different points of landfall and would move out from the point of landing.“Humankind appearing at the same time in the continent does not seem possible.
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Minimalist -Minimalist wrote:I agree. Why not?
I invite Das Klub
In fairness,
To return their argument.
Given lower sea levels
And purposeful internment deep
Into the coastal caves which
Were open "Pre Clovis".
Let alone the whole subject of " Boats"
Rather than Beringian "Feets".
Come one, come all
Clovis fans.
I hope not to hear a deafening silence.
hoka hey
john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
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Minimalist
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I'm not going to hold my breath waiting to see if they pick up your gauntlet, John.
They'll probably just assert that HE was far too stupid to do any of that stuff.
They'll probably just assert that HE was far too stupid to do any of that stuff.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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michaelruggeri
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UPDATE ON THE OLDEST HUMAN IN THE AMERICAS
Listeros,
National Geographic has a follow up story on the oldest human ever found in the Americas dubbed Eve of Naharon near Tulum. The skeleton has been dated at 11,600 BCE and it was found with 3 others. Once again, chief archaeologist Arturo Gonzalez stated that the skulls hint that these people came from South Asia and not North Asia. The other 3 skeletons are between 9000-12,000 BCE.
One problem with radio-carbon dates of organic materials that have been in sea water, as these skeletons have been, is that minerals in the sea water can alter the dating results. Arturo Gonzalez will begin extracting a 4th skeleton known as Chan hol which could be older than Eve this month. Publication of the research will be done after the 4th skeleton is excavated.
It is hoped they may have some information on how these ancient people arrived when they are done with their research.
National Geographic has the story here;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... 45213.html
A tiny URL;
http://tinyurl.com/5ox3hd
Mike Ruggeri
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/
National Geographic has a follow up story on the oldest human ever found in the Americas dubbed Eve of Naharon near Tulum. The skeleton has been dated at 11,600 BCE and it was found with 3 others. Once again, chief archaeologist Arturo Gonzalez stated that the skulls hint that these people came from South Asia and not North Asia. The other 3 skeletons are between 9000-12,000 BCE.
One problem with radio-carbon dates of organic materials that have been in sea water, as these skeletons have been, is that minerals in the sea water can alter the dating results. Arturo Gonzalez will begin extracting a 4th skeleton known as Chan hol which could be older than Eve this month. Publication of the research will be done after the 4th skeleton is excavated.
It is hoped they may have some information on how these ancient people arrived when they are done with their research.
National Geographic has the story here;
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... 45213.html
A tiny URL;
http://tinyurl.com/5ox3hd
Mike Ruggeri
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://community-2.webtv.net/Topiltzin- ... ggerisPre/
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Minimalist
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Mike,
This line:
with underlining added, is interesting. On those occasions when seawater DOES alter the date (which presumably means that there are other occasions when it does not) does it make the reading seem older or younger?
This line:
According to archaeologist David Anderson of the University of Tennessee, however, minerals in seawater can sometimes alter the carbon 14 content of bones, resulting in inaccurate radiocarbon dating results.
with underlining added, is interesting. On those occasions when seawater DOES alter the date (which presumably means that there are other occasions when it does not) does it make the reading seem older or younger?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
-- George Carlin
-- George Carlin
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michaelruggeri
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Seawater and Radio Carbon Dating
Minimalist,
I am researching your question and I hope to have a good answer in a day or two.
Mike
I am researching your question and I hope to have a good answer in a day or two.
Mike
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