Neandertal's death, new theory.

[Minimalist]

Er....




No one is going to confuse them with the New York Knicks.

[Digit]

True Min, but look at it this way. Blue eyes or blonde hair is pretty well unknown out side of European stock.
Conclusion? It is a trait that either occurred in HSS after he arrived in Europe or he inherited from an existing European population.
Now we are informed that these traits probably existed in HSN, so either we accept a hybrid source or we accept that it was a change that took place withing European HSS and no other HSS group.
That would mean that European HSS and HSN were both subject to a similar mutation.
Possible I guess, but stretching coincidence I think.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Possible I guess, but stretching coincidence I think.

No argument here. I'm just wondering why we don't see the corresponding gene occasionally show up from the dominant genes?
Think what it could do for the Norwegian National Basketball Team?

[Minimalist]

Um...the latest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/scienceandte ... ckles.html

In a major breakthrough, Spanish scientists have discovered the blood group and two other genes of the early humans who lived 43,000 ago.

After analysing the fossil bones found in a cave in north-west Spain, the experts concluded they had human blood group "O" and were genetically more likely to be fair skinned, perhaps even with freckles, have red or ginger hair and could talk.

[Digit]

R-i-i-ight. S-o-o-o that would suggest Erectus? That would suggest regional development from Erectus to HSN and---?
So where does the suggested second OOA bunch come into it?
Certain ancient North Africans were suggested as red headed, but sub Saharan?
Or was the second OOA actually SIA, Stay in Africa?
Or did I miss something?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I don't think you missed anything, Dig. I think there are a few gaping holes in the theory.

[Digit]

In the past Min I have pointed out that DNA can be lost in a population, the example that I quoted was the lack of North African genes in the Spanish population, and in the OP about the Alaskan research the reporter confirms it, so I asked there, how reliable is ancient DNA?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Probably depends on the point of view of the researcher.

If red hair was dominant among HNS and HSS arrived from Africa AND displaced HNS then how the hell do we end up with many more red/blond haired Europeans. Should the "victorious" gene pool be dominant with only an occasional red/blond gene breaking through and even that assumes interbreeding which the OOA crowd is not willing to allow?

[Digit]

And why are no sub Saharan's, discounting migrants, red haired etc?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

5-6,000 years ago the Sahara was not the barrier that it is today.

[gunny]

The new girls were more attactive than the Russian shotputers locals, so down went the reproduction.

[Minimalist]

A little gift from Rokcet.

http://www.fossilscience.com/research/N ... lement.asp

In an article soon to be published in the Geographical Review, he suggests that Neandertals may have been iodine deficient. A single genetic difference in the thyroid gland, which controls iodine extraction from food, could account for many other differences in bone structure and body shape.

The bones of Neandertal (the spelling scholars prefer over Neanderthal) were first unearthed in Germany but since have been found in inland areas throughout Europe and Western Asia. They reveal numerous similarities to modern humans who suffer from iodine deficiency disorder-in its most severe form, cretinism.

"Distinctive Neandertal traits-overall body proportions, heavy brows and muscles, dental development and wear and propensities for degenerative joint diseases-are identical to those of modern humans suffering from cretinism," Dobson says. "Whether it was biological-a genetically restricted ability to process iodine-or pathological-a dietary deficiency-I can't say.

[Cognito]

Dobson has a potentially testable hypothesis, certainly not a theory. Given the progress on the Neandertal Genome Project, testing for differences will be straightforward before too long. Don't bet the farm on this one, though.

Neandertals becoming cretins becaused they lived inland in mountainous regions doesn't take into consideration discoveries on the coast of Spain, etc. It was either a deficient gene or his hypothesis is crap. Min, please send this guy some bucks so he can pay Svante Paabo to look into it, OK? Thanks!

[Minimalist]

IF (big "if") one concedes the notion that HNS was "forced" to retreat to the edge of the European landmass by HSS moving in from the East, THEN one might see how Central European HNS ended up in southern Iberia.

BUT. I'm more impressed by the argument that HSS crossed from North Africa to Spain by boats....which they had in abundance. If there were HNS in Spain at the time then contact was made there and fairly early in the HSS expansion.


Right now, Cogs, I get the feeling that there are far too many groups throwing shit against the walls to see what sticks. We need a period of reflection to try to sort through all these suggestions (I won't call them "theories") to try to refine ideas. Everyone is looking for THE answer when the truth might well be that there were many answers.

However, that said, there is nothing wrong with this kind of brain-storming. Someone should rein in the headline writers, though.

[Minimalist]

Hmmm..... interesting.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 140046.htm

Over 14,000 years ago during the last Pleistocene Ice Age, when a large part of the European continent was covered in ice and snow, Neanderthals in the region of Gibraltar in the south of the Iberian peninsula were able to survive because of the refugium of plant and animal biodiversity.