Western Med Carthaginian Amphorae

[Der Lange]

Several years ago a deep-water shipwreck was found off the Spanish coast. Researchers evaluating the majority of amphorae photographed on the wreck identified them as the type apparently made at an ancient Carthaginian site known as "Kuass," and connected them to trade from the Carthaginian northwestern African Atlantic port of "Lixis" or "Lixos."

I have recently acquired "Through the Pillars of Herakles" which not only sheds some considerable light on both those locations, but also provides some excellent primary and secondary sources for further research into these relatively rare clay vessels.

(And, by the way, it goes into wonderful detail about the exploration and geographic knowledge of the ancient world, and is going to dismay diffusionists who claim the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans came to the Western Hemisphere. NOT! This is one of the most-thoroughly researched and referenced books I have ever seen on any historical subject, and is a must for the libraries of anyone dealing with the ancients.)

In this book, and in other researches, I have consistently come across references to the work of French archaeologist Michel Ponisch, who apparently uncovered the kiln where the wreck amphorae may have been manufactured as long as 2500 years ago.

However, finding Ponisch's published work seems near impossible. All I can locate are a few references to the Spanish-language work of a woman who apparently has followed up his efforts.

Anyone here have some leads for Ponisch's publications, detailed treatments of the work he did, or other archaeologists' work on this subject?

[Der Lange]

As mentioned in first post:

"Through the Pillars of Herakles, Greco-Roman Exploration of the Atlantic"

Author - Duane K. Roller, Prof. Greek and Latin, Ohio State University

Publishing data - Routledge, New York, NY, 2006; 163 pages including index and appendices; ISBN 0415372879

[Minimalist]

Somewhere deep in the recesses of this board there is a long thread discussing the issue of cross-Atlantic contact. There are classical Mediterranean artifacts turning up in the New World but whether it was the result of direct voyages of commerce or exploration, or, as I thought, sailors who were caught in storms and pushed westward was unresolved.
Columbus' contribution to the issue was not that he 'found' America it is that he had a way to get back and tell everyone about it.

Sounds like an interesting book, though.

[stan]

Der Lange, there are several internet sites that list used books for sale by bookshops all over the US. One of them is
bookfinder.com . Have you tried there for your hard-to-find
items?

BTW...as a child, my interest in archaeology was piqued by
National Geographic's hardback called (I believe)
Everyday Life in Ancient Times, published about
1953. It featured full-page artists recreations of
the ancient world, and had a lot of nude women in it!

[Barracuda]

I remember growing up in Izmir in the early 60's. My Dad was one of the first in the area to take up SCUBA. Back then the bottom of Izmir Bay was litered with amphorae, but the Turks watched him very carefully, and he could not bring anything up.

Just as well, maybe it allowed someone the chance to study them en situ..

[Der Lange]

What an intriguing collection of responses!

Of course, Izmir is a long, long way from the eastern coast of Spain - and the waters there are too deep for SCUBA. But I am happy to learn that even then the Turks protected diver-accessible cultural heritage sites! Or, to be more specific, attempted to ....

As for those old National Geographic books (and magazines) - I think every boy between 8 and 16 eagerly looked for the arrival of them in those days. A much more innocent time, perhaps ...

Unfortunately, searches on Michel Ponisch are woefully inadequate. So very little shows up. Yet he seems to have been an important archaeologist working in a much-neglected area of the world. Anyone got more data?

[Minimalist]

As long as we're talking about Carthage, I always loved this quote.

"Following the rivers of fire for three further days, we reached a gulf named the Southern Horn. In the gulf lay an island with a lake, and in it another island. The second island was full of wild people. By far the greater number were women with hairy bodies. We gave chase to the men but could not catch any, for they all scampered up steep rocks and pelted us with stones."

—The Phoenician explorer Hanno encountering apes for the first time along the coast of West Africa, 5th century BC

[Der Lange]

Duane W. Roller, in "Through the Pillars of Herakles," pp. 38-39, takes on the issue of whether Hannor or Euthymenes actually first reached the location mentioned in Minimalist's quote. There's an intersting photo also shown of a simialr feature in Carthage Harbor, the "kothon." Roller is mainly interested in figuring out where that spot was located. He comes to the conclusion, well-presented in the book, that it was the Bay of Goree, just below Cape Vert in the location of modern Dakar. And apparently Hanno got there while Euthymenes stopped further north on the coast of west Africa.

[Minimalist]

Can you imagine being cooped up on a small ship with a bunch of horny Carthaginians?

[Beagle]

Stop - that reminds me of those Homo Erectus posts.

[Der Lange]

Umm, can any of you imagine being cooped up on a small ship with ANY people of ancient times? Yecch, the smell alone is enough to put a halt to any "Homo Erectus" ideas (of ANY persuasion, smarties).

The ships smelled of smoke, the voidings of all aboard, past meals, the aromas of fish, meat, vegetables and garum long gone bad, dead ashes from the cook pit and the rocks or bricks lining it, the animals brought along for food (or sometimes cargo), and worst of all, the people, unwashed for ages, with rotting teeth, skin diseases and the other woes that can make a human a putrid mass.

Me, I vote for garum long gone bad the worst of it all!

[Minimalist]

Stop - that reminds me of those Homo Erectus posts.

[Der Lange]

Smarties!

Really, the original post was serious. I would dearly LOVE to get hold of the work Ponisch did in North Africa. Anyone out there got some leads?

[Minimalist]

Can't help you. Google came up with a great big zero on him.

[Der Lange]

Yeah, Ponisch is not someone you'll find on Google or most of the other search engines. May be in some of the specialty databases. I am hoping a member of the "club" who visits here may have some good info.