Historical Mayan / African (by phenotype) American monarchs

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

The 10th of 17 known historical personages: TODAY’S SUBJECT: Lady Mut Balam, c. 752-768 AD, Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico.


After the first page below will be added the 10th of 17 monarchs. The pictures can be seen below if your browser allows it. Otherwise, they can be seen at the link.

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY OF Lady Mut B’alam:
Mut Balam was not a monarch, per se, but a historical personage. She was the servant of Queen K'abal Xook who was the first wife of Itzamnaaj Balam II, 752-768 AD.

INTRODUCTION TO PAGE, KING'S LIST, 25 AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

Lady Mut Balam, servant of K’abal Xook, wife of Itzamnaaj Balam, 15th monarch of Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico:
Image
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-09.html


Note: A comprehensive listing of the monarchs shown appears at this link following their introduction:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... index.html
Marc Washington
PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

The 11th of well-over 17 known historical personages: TODAY’S SUBJECT: K’inich Tatb’u Skull-III, 808 - 812 AD, Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico.


After the first page below will be added the 11th of 17 monarchs. The pictures can be seen below if your browser allows it. Otherwise, they can be seen at the link.

BRIEF BIOGRAPHY OF King K’inich Tatb’u Skull: The king in this lentil is thought to be K’inich Tatb’u Skull III. He is the Mayan ruler of Yaxchilan also known as Mak'ina Tah Skull III who reigned c. 808. He was Yaxchilan’s 17th monarch whose father was Itzamnaaj B'alam III and his mother, queen Ch'ab Ajaw.

INTRODUCTION TO PAGE, KING'S LIST, 25 AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

King K’inich Tatb’u Skull, 17th monarch of Yaxchilan, Chiapas, Mexico:

Image
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-03.html


Note: A comprehensive listing of the monarchs shown appears at this link following their introduction:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... index.html
Marc Washington
PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

OLMEC KINGS OF AFRICAN PHENOTYPE AS MAYA ICONOGRAPHY

The 12th of 17 known historical personages: TODAY’S SUBJECT: King Tutuum Yohl K’inich of Guirigua, Izabel, Guatamala, c. 455 AD.


After the first page below will be added the 12th of 17 monarchs. The pictures can be seen below if your browser allows it. Otherwise, they can be seen at the link.

King Tutuum Yohl K’inich: In the May 2002 issue, National Geographic called the Olmec (2100 BC to 300 BC) seen with their characteristic head-gear [2, 3, 4] as the Mother Civilization of the Americas. Their likeness is seen in the Mayan totem pole [2] of the monarch of Guirigua in Guatemala, Tutuum Yohl K’inich [1]. The king’s Olmec guardian [2] “angel” is above him [1] as Bes of Afrigyt [5] guards above Horus.

INTRODUCTION TO PAGE, KING'S LIST, 25 AFRICAN-MAYAN ANALOGIES:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

King Tutuum Yohl K’inich:

Image
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-09.html



Note: A comprehensive listing of the monarchs shown appears at this link following their introduction:
http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... index.html
Marc Washington
War Arrow
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Post by War Arrow »

Sam Salmon wrote:Note that the ancient Olmec head as shown below is not in any way representative of anything African-it's widely thought to be a child's head with exaggerated features (enclosed some some as yet unknown reason in a helmet).

I know this is true because I read it right on this board!

It's not African-NOT!!!

Might look that way but don't be fooled! :wink:


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Jesus - get over it, fella.
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PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

This page is incomplete as I am away from my computer and can't update the information. In some days, I will re-do it:

Image

Until then, this html link will not work. It should be activated by next Monnday:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 10-06.html
.
Marc Washington
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Post by Minimalist »

Jesus - get over it, fella.

I don't know, W/A. Its a better argument than the guy who suggested that the Olmecs had made statues of their African "slaves" thus making them the only civilization ever to so honor its "slaves."

Sheeesh!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Cognito
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Male haplogroups

Post by Cognito »

DNA tracing is done equally commonly on the male side.

Sure it would get diluted, but a large enough sample can set limits. Also, if the Africans were kings, they would generally have a very large number of offspring.

As nothing fishy seems to be reported from the DNA analysis, plus the excellent point on the lack of disease resistance, it seems that this theory does not hold water, so to speak.
With regard to DNA analysis on the male side of North and South Native American research we only see yDNA haplogroups C and Q which originate in Asia. If Africans were colonizing the Americas to the point of being monarchs, I would expect to find some genetic trace. So far, there is none.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
zale
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Re: Male haplogroups

Post by zale »

Cognito wrote:
DNA tracing is done equally commonly on the male side.

Sure it would get diluted, but a large enough sample can set limits. Also, if the Africans were kings, they would generally have a very large number of offspring.

As nothing fishy seems to be reported from the DNA analysis, plus the excellent point on the lack of disease resistance, it seems that this theory does not hold water, so to speak.
With regard to DNA analysis on the male side of North and South Native American research we only see yDNA haplogroups C and Q which originate in Asia. If Africans were colonizing the Americas to the point of being monarchs, I would expect to find some genetic trace. So far, there is none.
I agree. Genetics in general is a new and very powerful tool which already has a proven track record of eliminating (like it seems in this case) or corraborating many theories of mass population movements.
War Arrow
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Post by War Arrow »

Minimalist wrote:
Jesus - get over it, fella.

I don't know, W/A. Its a better argument than the guy who suggested that the Olmecs had made statues of their African "slaves" thus making them the only civilization ever to so honor its "slaves."

Sheeesh!
Sorry, Min - I'm not even debating the topic, more the way I've been away for six months or whatever and come back to find this guy is still sniping at me.

Anyway, as you were. See you in another six months.
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kbs2244
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Post by kbs2244 »

My globe shows the Africa to America and return currents and winds to the Caribbean and south.
I would not expect any African influence in NA.
I would not be surprised to find them in CA and the west coast of SA.
E.P. Grondine

Post by E.P. Grondine »

kbs2244 wrote:My globe shows the Africa to America and return currents and winds to the Caribbean and south.
I would not expect any African influence in NA.
I would not be surprised to find them in CA and the west coast of SA.
For accidental crossings from Africa to South America and the Caribbean, see my book for reference. It may possibly have been that Clovis and Savanah River appeared in South America, and then spread to North America from there. Perhaps some of them are being seen by Paul, but seen by him as coming directly from further south in Africa.

Accidental mariners from the east coast of Africa generally seem to have hit land falls well to the west of North America or South America.
E.P. Grondine

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Hi Paul -

I think that many of the items in your list of common cultural elements features elements too general to be useful diagnostically. Also, in my opnion, I think that perhaps you are mis-interpreting at least three to four meso-american cultural elements.

I am wondering, what books do you think would be a good introduction to western african archaeology and proto-history? Any really outstanding books out there? I've read some of the popular books, seen some exhibits, but nothing really really good.

Its freezing ice here in Illinois, and I'd really much rather be out in southern Morocco or northern Western Sahara looking at some fossil river mouths, if anyone wants to just send me a boat load of cash to do it.

In the meantime. let me thank those of you here who have purchased copies of "Man and Impact in the Americas" from me - I hope you are enjoying your read.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

[E.P. writes] I think that many of the items in your list of common cultural elements features elements too general to be useful diagnostically.

[Marc writes] Hi Ed. Well, in my ideas evolving over time I through the years may come to question aspects of my own evidence. Remember I mentioned this:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 00-07.html

So, if me, why not you. I can accept your reservations. My question is: Can you give some examples of cultural elements which are too general to be useful diagnostically?

[E.P. writes] Also, in my opnion, I think that perhaps you are mis-interpreting at least three to four meso-american cultural elements.

[Marc writes] Can you give me some examples of these mis-interpretated meso-american cultural elements?

[E.P. writes] I am wondering, what books do you think would be a good introduction to western african archaeology and proto-history? Any really outstanding books out there?

[Marc writes] No. I can't. Someone wrote that archeological excavations in Egypt are 95% more extensive than excavations in any place of Africa of similar size. In terms of undiscovered, extant archeological evidence which could be useful in this thread, it may not be discovered until one, two, or three hundred years from now and maybe never.

Further, given the fact that I am too much unread, I cannot recommend any possible books in print that do indeed cover the subject (if such books exist). I will keep my eyes open.

Likewise, though, please inform me of any deeply-researched books abundant in pictures that you may come across.

As mentioned, I enjoyed perusing your recent manuscript.
Marc Washington
E.P. Grondine

Post by E.P. Grondine »

PaulMarcW wrote:[E.P. writes] I think that many of the items in your list of common cultural elements features elements too general to be useful diagnostically.

[Marc writes] Hi Ed. Well, in my ideas evolving over time I through the years may come to question aspects of my own evidence. Remember I mentioned this:

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... 00-07.html

So, if me, why not you. I can accept your reservations. My question is: Can you give some examples of cultural elements which are too general to be useful diagnostically?
The problem was your use of an image instead of text, which made this difficult.
PaulMarcW wrote:[E.P. writes] Also, in my opnion, I think that perhaps you are mis-interpreting at least three to four meso-american cultural elements.

[Marc writes] Can you give me some examples of these mis-interpretated meso-american cultural elements?
Again, the problem was your use of an image instead of text, which made this difficult.
PaulMarcW wrote:[E.P. writes] I am wondering, what books do you think would be a good introduction to western african archaeology and proto-history? Any really outstanding books out there?

[Marc writes] No. I can't. Someone wrote that archeological excavations in Egypt are 95% more extensive than excavations in any place of Africa of similar size. In terms of undiscovered, extant archeological evidence which could be useful in this thread, it may not be discovered until one, two, or three hundred years from now and maybe never.

Further, given the fact that I am too much unread, I cannot recommend any possible books in print that do indeed cover the subject (if such books exist). I will keep my eyes open.

Likewise, though, please inform me of any deeply-researched books abundant in pictures that you may come across.

As mentioned, I enjoyed perusing your recent manuscript.
Glad to see you got my warning about some people you need to steer clear of.

Concerning the African overviews, it's like I said before, until the African coastal sequences are better developed, you're going to have a tough time conclusively showing much of anything. In the meantime you can suggest, but its going to take a lot of time to clear up the African contacts and the extent of their effects.
PaulMarcW
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Post by PaulMarcW »

Hello E.P. In reply to my question about examples of unconvincing elements in my argument, you wrote
"the problem was your use of an image instead of text, which made this difficult."
I defined a person who is African (ignoring color; color aside) as someone with full facial features given to woolly or wiry hair." Granted the definition is terse. I go into quite a bit more detail on that definition on the page this link opens to:

http://www.beforebc.de/

You have said my argument lacked text. E.P. My argument does not have text? Many times when I see arguments presented showing affinities between two peoples, sometimes Science, Nature, or the other journals will present just one or two features in common; discuss these; and upon conclusion affirm that as they showed these one or two features to indeed be related, that their theory has been proven. These are peer-reviewed journals and no one says much about the process.

Here is an example. Science wrote that as the Dmaninisi of Georgia from 1.8 million years ago shared skulls that had affinity with Nariokotome Boy of Kenya from the same epoch; and that because Oldowan tools were produced by the Dmanisi people, that this was clear evidence of the first Out-of-Africa movement.

This sparse evidence, this scarcity of evidence was enough to convince scientists of international renown - one Israeli teaching at Harvard. Here's the response:
‘They look African,’ says archaeologist Ofer Bar-Yosef of Harvard University, who has visited Dmanisi several times. ‘I would give [Dmanisi] the credence of being the oldest known site in Eurasia with Oldowan stone tools.’ … Enthused University of Rome paleoanthropologist Giorgio Manzi claimed: ‘This is the missing link between Africa, Europe, and Asia!’
I'd give more examples but most articles of Science and Nature in any issue follow that simple template so examples are legion and the point is easy to verify by anyone interested to pick up any issue.

Conversely, I present not one or two analogies but over 35 here

http://www.beforebc.de/all_america/900_ ... archs.html

as in some bullets I have not one but three or even four analogies.

Is that not right?

Furthermore, these analogies (facts) contain a synergy and are syncretic as the sum is greater than the parts. With each additional pair of analogies, I'd say that the affinities increase not exponentially but by a value greater than one making the likelihood of affinity more-and-more not due to chance for two civilizations that co-existed in near proximity at the same ancient epoch. The greater the number of analogies, commonly shared facts, the greater those similarities were not due to chance.

And there is a synergy as well as the examples are multidisciplinary. Here is that Peter Underhill of Stanford wrote in encouraging that broader net be used by scientists to prove their points. Underhill writes:
"You have to look at genetics, material culture (archeological findings), linguistics and other areas to find different lines of evidence that reinforce each other." IN: Overlapping Genetic And Archaeological Evidence Suggests Neolithic Migration, Science Daily, Stanford University Medical Center, Issue of 11 Sep. 2002.
Where genetic evidence comes into play, I wonder how much was lost where the Spanish dispensed with those holders of land, gold, and real estate they preferred be under their own domain. Sadly, the numbers were legion.

In candor, I admit that my evidence is none the less, lacking in linguistics and genetics. As the years goes by, I'd like, to address these: but, where genetics is concerned, I did say that it was reported that some claim that Peruvian coffee and trace remains found in 18th dynasty Egypt were said to be the same. I asked for someone from Archaeologica to affirm or disprove that.

In closing, though I can respect your opinion, I'd say the strength of my argument lies in archeological and cultural anthropological cross-similarities.

I hold an open mind, though. I welcome your thoughts and those of anyone else on the matter.
Marc Washington
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