High Chronology/Low Chronology

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Minimalist
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High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

A persistent argument in Syro-Palestinian Archaeology ( to use William Dever's term) has been the question of dating. In a nutshell, stratification and pottery were the primary means of dating in the early 20th century but subsequent finds tended to obscure the pottery results. Coupled with the use of the Old Testament to provide a historical outline the stage was set for the current dispute.

An example is Yigal Yadin's dating of what he called "Solomonic Gates" at Megiddo, Gezer and Hazor as cited in the Book of Kings. Deciding that these gates were built by "Solomon" Yadin made what was, at the time, the logical conclusion that the pottery associated with the levels of the gates was 10th century because Solomon was believed to date from the 10th century and so the circle of reasoning was completed. When Israel Finkelstein came along in the 1980's and noted that these gates were identical to those at Samaria and bore identical "mason's marks" he concluded that the gates at the other sites post-dated the 10th century by 100 years or so. Thus the question became, was the pottery 10th century because of the biblical connection of Yadin or was it 9th century because of the architectural findings of Finkelstein?

Both sides turned to carbon 14 dating which had made significant strides in the meantime. William Dever, who has floated across the Minimalist/Maximalist line noted in a tv special from about 2000 that he expected the "low chronology" to be overturned within 5 years. It has not worked out that way and Dever has gone over to the other side. In 2007 Radiocarbon Magazine published the results of the FIRST STAGE OF THE IRON AGE DATING PROJECT IN ISRAEL. The initial reports not only supported Finkelstein it was noted by one commentator that the "Low Chronology" was actually a bit lower than he originally claimed. Phase Two of the project continues but although we were able to get abstracts of the report and commentary of it, today for the first time (and completely by accident) I found a link to the entire 2007 article.

http://www.weizmann.ac.il/kimmel-arch/pdf/36_Sharon.pdf

As the authors note in the conclusion:
Unlike historical dating, both 14C and seriation are augmentative, progressive (in the sense that new
and better data are continuously added), and probabilistic. Archaeologists relying on probabilistic
tools will have to settle for probabilistic answers that indicate the highest likelihood for a given
state-of-the-art. For the time being, our data set is definitely on the side of the Low Chronology and
demonstrates that the Iron Age I|II transition occurred about the end of the 10th century BCE.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

What is "the Iron Age I|II transition"?
Minimalist
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Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

Try this, courtesy of the I.A.A.

http://antiquities.org.il/article_Item_ ... ule_id=#as



(Be happy it isn't in Hebrew!)
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Cheers!

Although that doesn't jive with the founding of Cadiz in 1104 BC...
Minimalist
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Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

This study is strictly about the Levant.

I don't think it is possible to come up with one universal standard for these various ages across the entire world.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote: This study is strictly about the Levant.
So Cadiz applies, as it was founded by Levantines...

Can't think of a much clearer symbol of westward colonialism/imperialism.

Image
Minimalist
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Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

Even Carthage only dates to the late 9th century.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote:Even Carthage only dates to the late 9th century.
Carthage was a relatively late Phoenician development as Cadiz was fully 300 years earlier. As was the bronze age, when the Phoenicians emerged. Somebody sailed to the Scilly isles then to haul tin. In a regular trade. Half a millennium before Carthage!

And of course they also got tobacco and cocaïne from America, in that same era.

Question is of course: what did the Scilly islanders get for their tin? And where is it today?
Minimalist
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Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

I'm not following what this has to do with Iron 1/II?

Phoenicia existed in the Early/Middle Bronze Age as well.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote:I'm not following what this has to do with Iron 1/II?

Phoenicia existed in the Early/Middle Bronze Age as well.
Phoenicia didn't just exist in the Bronze Age: it flourished in the Bronze Age. Because of trade. Especially tin. The Phoenicians were the tin providers of the Med. And they got it from the Scillys/England.
If they got tin from the Scillys/England, in the Bronze Age, and if their seafaring m.o. was hugging coasts (as the map indicates) then it stands to reason they had many dozens, if not hundreds, of fixed landing points – "ports" – along those coasts. A fact borne out by Cyrene, Lepcis, Carthage, Tangir, Cadiz, Alicante, etc. etc.
And of Cadiz we have the founding year as 1104 BC. While we know the Phoenicians must have already been trading tin even long before that. With the Scillys/England. That tin trading was the engine of the Bronze Age, after all.
I.o.w.: Phoenician 'spreading' to the west happened looong before the Iron Age. Let alone before the transition of Iron Age I to II. Whenever that may have been.
Minimalist
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Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Minimalist »

Agreed but I still don't see what any of that has to do with the c14 study?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Minimalist wrote:Agreed but I still don't see what any of that has to do with the c14 study?
That study is titled "The Transition from the Iron Age 1 to the Iron Age 2 and its Context with the Beginning of the Phoenician Spread Westward", while we have just established that "the Phoenician Spread Westward" must have taken place loooong before "the Transition from the Iron Age 1 to the Iron Age 2".
E.P. Grondine

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by E.P. Grondine »

I am very very tired today , but part of this era was covered here:

http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... =10&t=2247

You should realize that impact events join with volcanism, tree ring data, and ice cores to provide much more reliable chronologies.

Moving to an earlier period, the Rio Cuarto impacts took place on October 25, 2360.

The people on Malta DISAPPEAR at the same time.

My thinking is that it is going to take the recovery of a nearby cuneiform cache before all of this
is finally put to rest.
E.P. Grondine

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by E.P. Grondine »

Rokcet Scientist wrote:Cheers!

Although that doesn't jive with the founding of Cadiz in 1104 BC...
Hi RS -

I don't know who you got that 1104 BCE date from, but consider:

As the earlier European coastal tin traders were most likely wiped out by an impact mega-tsunami:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce010702.html
(and yes, that is geologically supported, and not simply "myth":
http://forum.palanth.com/index.php/topic,1276.0.html)

Then that resulted in an empty trading niche to be filled by others.

Anybody got about $40,000 in spare change lying around loose? There's some places I really need to visit.
Rokcet Scientist

Re: High Chronology/Low Chronology

Post by Rokcet Scientist »

Funny all those impacts didn't leave traces in (oral) history comparable to flood stories.
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