Support for Sea-Borne Populating of the Americas

[Minimalist]

LOL. Perhaps the water was only ankle-high, EP? I can see a stone boat functioning as a kind of reverse bath tub!

[Rokcet Scientist]

the red paint people most likely evolved in the Black Sea region before it flooded, IMO.

Lake Euxine flooded around 6,500 BC, so I'm not sure how that pertains to a people who are supposed to have lived and left there at least 10,000 years earlier.

[Cognito]

Lake Euxine flooded around 6,500 BC, so I'm not sure how that pertains to a people who are supposed to have lived and left there at least 10,000 years earlier.

RS, the Black Sea Flood is typically dated to 5600bce when the Mediterranean topped over the Bosporus Sill. By the way, it wasn't a "flood", but a trickle, See: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/18431/. Aksu, A.E., Hiscott, R.N., Mudie, P.J., Rochon, A., Kaminski, M.A., Abrajano, T. and Yasar, D., Persistent Holocene outflow from Black Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean contradicts Noah’s Flood Hypothesis, GSA Today 12(5):4–10, 2002.

Prior to 5600bce, the Black Sea did flood at least twice from the opposite direction, through the Manytsch Straits, by glacial melt. This is evidenced by deltas on the Mediterranean side of the Bosporus Sill. See: http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/18496/. Hiscott, R.N. and Aksu, A.E. and Yasar, D. and Kaminski, M. A. and Mudie, P.J. and Kostylev, V.E. and MacDonald, J.C. and Isler, F.I. and Lord, A.R. (2002) Deltas south of the Bosphorus Strait record persistent Black Sea outflow to the Marmara Sea since ∼10 ka. Marine Geology, 190 (1-2). pp. 95-118. ISSN 00253227

Post LGM glacial meltwater resulted in the flooding of the Aral, Caspian and Black Seas with occasional mega-floods. The landscape was totally different than what we see today and certainly not the best place to live at times. See: http://geology.mines.edu/faculty/Klee/AltaiFlood.pdf.



The Caucasus and surrounding area gave rise to half of the world's mtDNA haplogroups with their dispersals occuring prior to and during the LGM which terminated at 18kya. That is the timeframe EP is discussing.

[Rokcet Scientist]

Lake Euxine flooded around 6,500 BC, so I'm not sure how that pertains to a people who are supposed to have lived and left there at least 10,000 years earlier.

RS, the Black Sea Flood is typically dated to 5600bce when the Mediterranean topped over the Bosporus Sill.

Indeed. I erroneously transposed the figures.

By the way, it wasn't a "flood", but a trickle

Water forced humans to vacate the area. That's commonly referred to as "flooding". Even if it took a century. The speed at which it occurs doesn't determine whether it's a flood or not. If land gets covered by water, at any speed, it is a 'flood'.

[Digit]

In vernacular English 'Flood' can refer to both land that is normally dry being covered in water and as reference to speed RS, so Cog is correct.

Roy.

[Cognito]

RS, let me rephrase my comments to appease your sense of disaster:

"The Ryan-Pittman Flood was a trickle compared to the Altai Megafloods".

From what I recall, the Mediterranean increased the sea level of the Black Sea by about one meter per week until achieving parity (Yawn. Let's sleep in today and move tomorrow). However, the Altai flood surges could grow to hundreds of feet in height, destroying everything in their path downstream. Now, that's a BIG ASS FLOOD!

[Rokcet Scientist]

RS, let me rephrase my comments to appease your sense of disaster:

"The Ryan-Pittman Flood was a trickle compared to the Altai Megafloods".

From what I recall, the Mediterranean increased the sea level of the Black Sea by about one meter per week until achieving parity (Yawn. Let's sleep in today and move tomorrow). However, the Altai flood surges could grow to hundreds of feet in height, destroying everything in their path downstream. Now, that's a BIG ASS FLOOD!

Yep, that's a lot like the Laurentian flood in North America. But it's debatable whether there were any hominids around to witness those events or to be directly affected by them.
Compared to those events the flooding of Lake Euxine was a "small ass flood", of course. But first and foremost it was a FLOOD. And humans, a whole civilisation, did witness it, and they were severely affected by it (diaspora).

So the 'small ass flood' affected people BIGTIME, whereas the 'BIG ASS FLOOD!' didn't.

[Cognito]

Yep, that's a lot like the Laurentian flood in North America. But it's debatable whether there were any hominids around to witness those events or to be directly affected by them.

RS, if you're not going to bother reading the articles that I'm referencing, you will never make any sense. From the Altai Flood article posted infra:

"Toward the end of the last glacial period, about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago, surging alpine and outlet glaciers in the Altai dammed montane rivers, creating large glacial lakes. These ice dams subsequently failed, causing catastrophic floods. The largest of these floods resulted from emptying two interconnected lakes on the Chuya River; this flood is referred to here as the Altai Flood." Ref: http://geology.mines.edu/faculty/Klee/AltaiFlood.pdf.

There were many humans living in the areas covered by the last Altai Flood at 11000-9000bce. A more recent article constrains the flood to 13800-12000bce, see: http://geology.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/ ... /34/11/913. Remember, half the world's genetics arise from the Caucasus area which was located in the flood area. And by the way, world population at the time was about 4 million so don't tell me there weren't humans around to witness the Altai Flood at that time, ref: McEvedy, Colin and Richard Jones, 1978, "Atlas of World Population History," Facts on File, New York, pp. 342-351.

Compared to those events the flooding of Lake Euxine was a "small ass flood", of course. But first and foremost it was a FLOOD. And humans, a whole civilisation, did witness it, and they were severely affected by it (diaspora).

There was no advanced "civilisation" inundated by the Black Sea rise and further, no "diaspora" from the Black Sea Flood except a small migration of farmers to Eastern Europe (Ref, Aksu [ibid]). With regard to genetic dispersal, you are off by 10,000 years plus.

So the 'small ass flood' affected people BIGTIME, whereas the 'BIG ASS FLOOD!' didn't.

Faulty logic.

[Digit]

Faulty logic.

= original thinking.

Roy.

[E.P. Grondine]

There was no advanced "civilisation" inundated by the Black Sea rise and further, no "diaspora" from the Black Sea Flood except a small migration of farmers to Eastern Europe (Ref, Aksu [ibid]). With regard to genetic dispersal, you are off by 10,000 years plus.

Cognito, I apologize if that's not your quote. I only have a few minutes right now.

The problem is the distribution of the X mt DNA haplogroup. That and the spread of polished stone tools and serated edge tools.

As for distribution, these folks were maritime, and the distribution of cardiod pottery seems to be related, though the current sites are late.

Apparently they make it to North America ca 8,350 BCE, bringing European diseases with them.

[Cognito]

Cognito, I apologize if that's not your quote. I only have a few minutes right now.

The problem is the distribution of the X mt DNA haplogroup. That and the spread of polished stone tools and serated edge tools. As for distribution, these folks were maritime, and the distribution of cardiod pottery seems to be related, though the current sites are late. Apparently they make it to North America ca 8,350 BCE, bringing European diseases with them.

EP, that is my quote you were referring to above. Ryan and Pitman placed their Black Sea Flood at 5,600bce in their book, reference: Ryan, William B.; Pitman, Walter C. (2000), Noah's Flood: The new scientific discoveries about the event that changed history, Simon & Schuster. That is 7,600bp.

Haplogroup X2a is found in North America with a coalescence time similar to that of the newly discovered D4h3a, or about 10,300 years ago. D4h3a skeletal remains were recently discovered in Alaska and dated to 10,300bp, reference: Distinctive Paleo-Indian Migration Routes from Beringia Marked by Two Rare mtDNA Haplogroups, Current Biology 19, 1–8, January 13, 2009. See: http://download.cell.com/images/edimage ... Perego.pdf.

RS is referring to post-7600bp whereas mtDNA X2a was already in North America circa 10,300bp or, as you state 10,350bp, about 2,700 years earlier. In other words, the maternal line was already long gone by the time of the Black Sea "Flood" (ie trickle).

Although the above-referenced article discusses a Beringea crossing, it is obvious to all geneticists that mtDNA X2 originated in the Near East, not Siberia. Further, there are no traces of the haplogroup in Siberia with the exception of a small amount in the Altai which apparently also originated in the Near East. In spite of this, it is political and pecuniary suicide for any scientist to state that migrants entered the Americas originating from the Near East at 8,350bce, even though the trail and traces are there, such as the simultaneous onset of the pandemic disease outbreak in North America that you documented in your book.

[Rokcet Scientist]

migrants entered the Americas originating from the Near East at 8,350bce

So what Middle Eastern group could that have been? Proto-Phoenicians? Proto-Myceneans (Odysseus' grandfather)? Any thoughts?

[E.P. Grondine]

Although the above-referenced article discusses a Beringea crossing, it is obvious to all geneticists that mtDNA X2 originated in the Near East, not Siberia. Further, there are no traces of the haplogroup in Siberia with the exception of a small amount in the Altai which apparently also originated in the Near East. In spite of this, it is political and pecuniary suicide for any scientist to state that migrants entered the Americas originating from the Near East at 8,350bce, even though the trail and traces are there, such as the simultaneous onset of the pandemic disease outbreak in North America that you documented in your book.

It appears survival does favor the paranoid, Cognito, as I am not feeling too well today, as some "youth" from the town where last weekends powwow was held made off with the bag containing all of my medicines. As far as political and pecuniary suicide goes, I am feeling like "Man and Impact in the Americas" will do very well after it has finished killing me. I sure didn't set out to be a martyr, and that was certainly not my plan at all.

Genetic teams put out new revolutionary human findings about every two weeks, most of them contradictory with each other. They are used to working with paternal Y DNA, because it is cheaper and used in paternity cases. On the other hand female mt DNA is really the key to tracking human movements.

X mt DNA also survives among the Druze.

If I can get "Man and Impact in the Americas" to a second edition, then the pandemic diseases will be better documented.

[E.P. Grondine]

So what Middle Eastern group could that have been? Proto-Phoenicians? Proto-Myceneans (Odysseus' grandfather)? Any thoughts?

The associated technologies I set out above, RS. To my knowledge, it appears they were not "proto" to anyone, but their technologies were adopted. They appear to have been pretty universally disliked, and interbreeding led to HS female's death due to infant head size. That would be speciation, technically.

These people were "mythic" by later times - the "Nephelim" were examined by Andrew Collins in "From the Ashes of Angels". There are also tales of Bashan and Og in the OT (whatever sources those tales came from, min).

Hence the X mt DNA among the Druze.