Red Sea to the Nile

[Rokcet Scientist]

BTW.
If there is a difference in sea levels, does that mean the is a current in the Suez Canal?

There would be if there were no locks.

AND;
One of the busiest canals in the world is the for ocean going ships at the base of the Danish peninsula between the Baltic and the North seas.

Indeed, and it has no locks...
It is, BTW, south of the Danish border, in Germany (see map), in the area where the Angels came from (who merged with the Saxons into the "Anglo-Saxons"). I travelled it in 1982.

The ships travel at their own power.

Indeed, sailing under wind power is impossible: the canal is too narrow and there is not enough wind due to the high banks. So this "Kieler Kanal" only became a viable proposition after steam propulsion became the norm.

Also, I believe the only time the ships are towed in the Panama Canal is when they are in the actual locks.

Correct: they're being towed by locomotives on rails alongside the locks. The towing lines between ship and loc are connected by little men in tiny one-man rowing boats... Been there, done that... (well, TBH I've seen them do it; '06; I wasn't one of those little men in those tiny rowing boats, I was on the ship being towed).

[Cognito]

From Min:

http://www.art.com/products/p14199962-s ... 60e1ca7e41

showing a 4th dynasty chariot complete with wheels. The 4th dynasty being the early 3'd millenium but, there were not many examples and many of the pastoral scenes reflected farming and even some oxen with nary a cart to be seen.

Perhaps, for whatever reason, they elected not to develop wheeled vehicles? I can only guess it is because the river provided their highway.

Most archaeologists attribute the introduction of the horse and chariot to about 2000bce in the Near East and then with the Hyksos upon their entry to Egypt. Yet, here you find a replica of a two-horse, two-rider chariot from the tomb of Princess Nefertiabet from the Old Kingdom, circa 2590-2565bce. Excellent find. Time to update my paradigm.

[Minimalist]

I suppose the statue could have been a royal gift from a foreign ruler, Cogs. Really all it shows is that the wheel was not unknown to the Egyptians in the Old Kingdom.

We still have to deal with R/S's main point which was "why did they not choose to develop it?"

[Digit]

Studying the map that Min kindly posted kb the northern end of the Persian canal shows greenery on both banks, which returns me to the point I made that the Egyptians would have cultivated both sides of a fresh water canal.
The map produces a special interest to me from the engineering side, were the builders lucky or was their knowledge greater than I would have suspected?
The modern canal, and the old one, both use the Bitter lakes, the name suggests that the water was more salty than the sea, the area does have extensive salt flats apparently. This would suggest a closed area of water subject to evaporation, like the Dead Sea.
The Rea Sea is higher than the Med, thus a straight cut would result in a current northwards, but both seas have tides, not especially large ones, but significantly they are out of phase. In a straight cut this would result in the waters 'yo-yoing' with a some salt water moving north.
Now Min's map shows greenery at the northern edge, could be salt water tolerant plants but then I would expect the same all along the cut.
This is where the luck or judgement comes in. The Bitter Lakes would act as balance lakes, eg, low tide in the Med, high tide in the Red Sea, water flows north. But if the lakes are large enough by the time that the water level in the lakes is high enoug to flow outwards the Med is up and the Red Sea is down!
Knowledge, or just a lucky off shoot of the easiest route?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I wonder how the "Bitter Lakes" got their name?

[Digit]

As I suggested Min, probaly due to evaporation, like the Dead Sea.
What fascinates me with the ancient canal is whether they knew what that were doing or just got lucky. If they knew what they were doing, how?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

I'll go for luck although it seems that nature had originally had an outlet to the Red Sea via an arm of the Nile. I suspect that the key is that there was a depression in the land which probably allowed the tide to flow in and out and because of the salt water the area was not suitable for agriculture anyway so no one cared. You'd end up with a tidal estuary of sorts where the Dutch could have gone hiking if they wished!

It looks as if all they were trying to do was re-create what nature had already done.

[kbs2244]

If you check the area on Google Earth you can see not only greenery along the banks of the branch, but also the tell tale circles of green that are the sign of central point pivot irrigation systems.

The greenery bends south all the way to mouth of the branch into the current canal.

That would make me believe it is currently constant fresh water at least that far.


I don’t understand your confusion Digit.
They knew water flows downhill.
If it flowed into the Bitter Lakes and thus into the Red Sea it would be safe to enhance the flow.

It is pretty clear that river level was higher than sea level.
They were very much concerned with river level.
There were a number of “Nilemeter” locations along the river.

[Digit]

The Red Sea is higher than the Nile in the north kb, not the other way around. In the case of the present canal the flow, intermittent though it is,is into the Med.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Would it matter which was "higher" if there is a depression in between that the water flows into anyway?


I seem to recall James Hoffmeier, a Christian scholar, (who was trying to make excuses for the Exodus) sitting down with satellite photographs and an Egyptian geographer on one program. They were concentrating on the now defunt Lake Bala as the so-called Sea of Reeds. The satellite photos indicate that there may well have been a lake there and it would have been just to the north of the area under consideration here.

If memory serves the Great Rift Valley runs nearby up into Jordan and there is a convergence of tectonic plates in the vicinity as well. All of that can lead to some interesting landscapes.

[Digit]

Would it matter which was "higher" if there is a depression in between that the water flows into anyway?

Yes Min, once they cut the canal the water would flow on down the canal. Give or take a bit the level in the lakes would be that of the Red Sea.
One thing your map shows that is interesting is that the bank side greenery stops at the Nile end of the cut, why?
Logic would suggest that that is the end of the fresh water, that it is salt from there on, that then suggests that the waters were kept seperate.

Roy.

[Rokcet Scientist]

If memory serves the Great Rift Valley runs nearby up into Jordan and there is a convergence of tectonic plates in the vicinity as well. All of that can lead to some interesting landscapes.

As it can to armageddon-like events (as they must have appeared to humans) like devastating earthquakes, and to continuous 'rearrangement' (in geological terms) of environmental circumstances! Forcing human adaptation.

[Minimalist]

I can certainly understand when ancient men attributed earthquakes and such to angry gods, R/S.


It's when modern men do it that I lose patience.

[kbs2244]

If the current Red Sea level is higher than the Nile River level, and there is now a connection between the Nile and the current canal, then the flow would be from the current canal into the Nile.
And I would assume that water would be salty since the current canal is open to salt water at each end and would be salt water through out its length.

But Goggle shows they are using that water for irrigation.
That would indicate it is fresh water.

The only way to avoid poisoning the entire Nile Delta would be a dam at the edge of the current canal to prevent any “backflow” into the river.
But that would require the river level to the higher.

[Digit]

As far as I know kb there is no connection currently between the Nile and the Rea Sea.
Also, any height differentials would depend on the relative positions, north/south, to determine which direction any flow would take.

Roy.