Tiwanaku Stone Work

[ron davis]

For me Tiwanaku remains a place of mystery and wonder, even after nearly 40 years of visiting.
Some years ago I was fortunate to have spent a little time with Prof. J.P. Protzen of U.C. Berkeley while he and his student Stella Nair were investigating the astounding stone work of the Puma Punku part of Tiwanaku.
The exact method used to shape the stones seems to remain as much a mystery as ever.
To my knowledge the workshops where the stones were shaped have yet to be found, nor the tools that were used to achieve such incredible precision.
This WAS rocket science for people who only had stone to work with. The degree of precision demonstrated over and over on the andesite stones, which were transported across part of Lake Titicaca, has not been appreciated by most archaeologists.
The the technical mastery exhibited by the stone work at Tiwanaku represents a feat of engineering which deserves to be given a great deal of thought.
Aside from anything else the stonework in itself represents a message that has come down in time from them to us. They left us with a mystery so profound that we may still not have grasped it. Was this intentional? How can we know even that?
The question remains: How did they accomplish this incredible feat, with what as tools, and WHY?

It was not for aesthetic reasons, at least not in the ordinary sense. There was no aesthetic need to produce hard stone sculpture of such precision that modern measuring tools used by engineers are required to appreciate the accuracy
Could this have somehow been easy for them to do? (You can ask exactly the same question about Inca stone work).

There seems to be a tendency to think that because Tiwanaku is ancient there is somehow no need for a technical explanation for the ability of those people to work marvels in hard stone with only other stones for tools.(And where are all those worn out stone tools, anyway?) Are we simply to assume that somehow these people living in relative isolation at nearly 4000 meters had acquired technical expertise on a par with that of a large modern industrial workshop, and let it go at that. Really?
I took a precision metal machinist friend from Australia to Tiwanaku the last visit.
I wanted him to tell me how he would shape the multi-ton andesite stones to the same degree of precision using today's sophisticated machine tools.
He came away talking about huge milling machines with moving beds three meter across, upon which the stone would be mounted and a machine head with big rotating cutters made from a material only invented shortly before WW II.
Were the ancient people of Tiwanaku trying to tell us something with their impossibly precise stone cutting ability?
If so,what was it?
Was this the only way for them to communicate over the vast time that separates, not to mention unfathomable cultural differences?

Ron Davis
LaPaz, Bolivia

[Minimalist]

Ron, first off thank you for a great first post.

There seems to be a tendency to think that because Tiwanaku is ancient there is somehow no need for a technical explanation for the ability of those people to work marvels in hard stone with only other stones for tools.

I wonder if it is less a question of not seeing "the need" and more an admission of the fact that they do not have a credible explanation for such stonework? Lacking such an explanation they would rather "not go there" than dare to consider the possibilities which are inherent in your question.

[ron davis]

It may be that to focus their efforts on something inconclusive like the Tiwanaku stonework is not a wise career move for young archaeologists. And who would they study under, anyway?
Ancient stonework seems to attract people with wild ideas. These ideas are generally far less interesting than the observable facts on the ground.
There were actually real people here many years ago who could do things which today we cannot explain.
By assuming something beyond normal physics or something supernatural, they avoid looking for a down to earth explanation, which would be intensely interesting. (assuming there is one).
If there is no reasonable explanation, then we should look at THAT.
But, as it is, there is almost no current interest by the archaeological community working here to decipher this incredible IN YOUR FACE mystery.

Ron Davis
La Paz, Bolivia
watermotor.net

[Minimalist]

Okay. Let's try to keep this focused...we tend to get a little scattered around here at times.

It may be that to focus their efforts on something inconclusive like the Tiwanaku stonework is not a wise career move for young archaeologists. And who would they study under, anyway?

It seems to me that the place to begin is with studying the existing theories and working under the people who devised them. I don't know that there is any way to avoid doing the grunt work. Can someone really dismiss a theory that they have not studied at all? As you pointed out, there really is no explanation for the stone working which means that it is fertile ground for someone once they have some standing in the field. There is a fellow by the name of Dennis Stocks who is regarded as an expert on ancient tools. He had an explanation for how granite blocks were quarried for the pyramids using copper tools. You take a 2-man copper saw with no teeth and then you pour sand over the stone and the sand becomes the cutting edge. Now....I'm sure this would work eventually (remember you have to cut it on four sides) in the same sense that rain water will erode a mountain but would it be done in time to meet the pyramid building schedule? That I'm not so sure about. We have an engineer around here, Digit, and perhaps he'll chime in on heat buildup from friction as you begin to make the cut deeper.

What's needed is some experimentation to see if the stone work can be replicated. As you say, there is no real consensus at the moment on how these things were done which means you don't have to have enough evidence to overcome the existing theory. But it does seem as if the first task would be to figure out what tools were used. Even in Egypt there are remnants of copper chisels and dolomite hammers to be found.

If there is no reasonable explanation, then we should look at THAT.

Yes but far too many people find that unsatisfying. That will trigger the Ancient Aliens crowd to start shrieking about spacemen and then all serious scientific examination will cease. That's a very fine line to tread.

[kbs2244]

Those of you not into “alternative” energy may not know of Ron Davis.

He does have the ability to think a little outside the box.
And is not afraid to follow through on those thoughts.

Check out his watermotor.net site for examples that have nothing to do with archeology.

[Minimalist]

Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box.

[kbs2244]

No argument on that.

I admire people that can.


I think Tiwanaku is going to require it.

[E.P. Grondine]

Ye Olde Grouch has been called,
and thus it is now time for me to become Ye Old Grouch.

Before one starts babbling about Atlantis, "Pole Shifts", aliens, and a lot of other theosophist bullshit, or "experimenting" with ayahausca "tourism", it would help to do real research work in the real world first.

First buy some reliable academic books by professional archaeologists and read them.

One could then start field work by looking at the robbed stones used in building La Paz, tracking them down, and tracking down the colonial records of their removal from their original sites.

Locate the quarries for the stones, and study them.
Keep an eye out for the remains of quartz tools and other tools.

Locate the ancient peoples's copper/arsenic and nickel sources.

As far as transporting large monoliths goes, there is stone rowing.

Accept the radiocarbon dates, and any astronomical misalignments ascribe to the ordinary tectonic activity of the area. Try to date that activity reliably, please.

I would hope this helps, but since fantastic bullshit is so much more fun, makes some people feel so good about themself's and their importance here on Earth, and sells so well,

I doubt it.

Do all of the work first, and please don't bother me with your bafflement until you have.
Or else Ye Olde Grouch will return.

And please, please don't use these remains to sell any religious beliefs you might have.

Feel free to chew coca and drink coca tea during your high altitude work,
but stay to fuck away from dealing/smuggling coke.

As far as the ayahausca goes, remember those headless bodies first.

By the way, the local traditions regarding Pukara are in "Man and Impact in the Americas", including material on the jaguar cults of South America.

The nickel rich iron meteorites of Campo de Cielo are not covered in this edition.

[Tiompan]

any astronomical misalignments ascribe to the ordinary tectonic activity of the area.

Very scientific .
Why not do the same for "aligned " astronomy ?
George

[ron davis]

The only works I know of that deal with the Tiwanaku stonework scientifically are the descriptions of Prof. J.P. Protzen and Dr. Stella Nair. Does anyone know of others?

[Tiompan]

The only works I know of that deal with the Tiwanaku stonework scientifically are the descriptions of Prof. J.P. Protzen and Dr. Stella Nair. Does anyone know of others?

Reasonable
http://www.reedboat.org/Research/Tiwanaku%20Masonry.pdf

George