Cahokia

[E.P. Grondine]

I love the show Time Team but always cringe a bit when I see the backhoe come in. I've found ceramics in the roots of the grass when we spade stripped turf.

But - if you're under a time crunch, espeially in a CRM situation, it may be the only way to get the job done under the deadline.

"CRM job" on a World Heritage Site:

http://books.google.com/books?id=sCX-IV ... #v=onepage&
q&f=false

I'm sorry, JIm, but Iseminger's overseeing of the bulldozers operation was grossly inadequate.

They removed more than later slump repair fill, which is what was authorized.

If he could not oversee their operation he should have assigned someone else to do it.

At that point careful excavation should have started

I'm sure he's a nice guy, and does not beat his wife or dog, but this is unacceptable.

Inregards to power equipment on sites, I agree. You can be damned sure that none is used at the Berry site or Jamestown.

As far as the Cahokia bookstore goes, someday they will carry my book, but today it feels like that is likely to be after I've passed on.

It will take them that long to catch up.

[oldarchystudent]

Maybe I'm using a term that isn't used in the USA.

Here in Canada CRM is Cultural Resource Management and refers to a situation where, for example, some construction company is digging to put in a foundation or a parking lot and comes across some archaeology by accident. A CRM team comes in to rescue the archeology but because there's a building schedule involved, these things are usually pushed for time.

The passage you cite is not a CRM situation and in fact spanned at least 3 years. It refers to bulldozers being used to push large quantities of donated soil into a damaged section of the side of the mound following some naturally occurring slumping and a stopgap solution that was not adequate long-term. Certainly this does not indicate that bulldozers were used for excavation as your initial "vent" seemed to imply.

I'm not sure what your alternative would be - carry it all up there one basket at a time like the original mound builders? The passage clearly indicates that Isemenger was concerned for the integrity of the mound when he dismissed some 20 engineering solutions as being potentially harmful to it. Leaving the depression would only have led to more damage as water accumulated and undercut. I could see some fairly deep rivulets forming on the NE corner so this situation will certainly occur again.

Under the circumstances it sounds like he took the only reasonable course of action available to him.

And as a tip - if you want the Cahokia store to carry your book it might go better for you if you're not calling for Isemenger to be sacked....

[E.P. Grondine]

My advice on how not to get mugged in an urban area and my explanation of how that danger cam about applies to visitors to St. Louis, and no, I'm not going to cut it out.

I'm not alone in my views on this, the SEAC Knoxville attendees gasped when they saw it.

Yes, there were no ideal solutions, but the implementation of the one that was selected was very deficient. When the previous slump repair soil was removed, at that point the bulldozing should have stopped.

If Iseminger has an explanation of why it did not, there are many others besides myself who would like to hear it.

An examination of the events would make a great SEAC session.

[oldarchystudent]

You can put whatever you like in your book, relevant or not. I don't believe I asked you to remove it.

As for Isemenger's reasoning, as I said before - write and give him the benefit of your wisdom on where you think he went wrong. I certainly won't be carrying the message for you when I go back, so I'm not certain what you think this continued venting will accomplish...

I'd be interested to hear about your own excavation and site supervisory experience, EP. I assume it must be prodigious if you're so critical of guys that have been at it for decades.

[paleochick]

Sounds like you had a great time at Cahokia Oldarchystudent. I may check into volunteering next summer.

[Minimalist]

We had another guy (Beagle) here who volunteered with Al Goodyear at the Topper Site in South Carolina. He called it a great experience.


(Depends on how much you like heat and humidity, I guess.....not that Texas is any bargain in the summer.)

[E.P. Grondine]

You can put whatever you like in your book, relevant or not. I don't believe I asked you to remove it.

Most traveling in the US who are from overseas are unfamiliar with "urban" problems.
In general many do not understand the relationships of the sites to their environment.
When I write a travel guide those items are relevant.

As for Isemenger's reasoning, as I said before - write and give him the benefit of your wisdom on where you think he went wrong.

It would be better if Iseminger went to SEAC, and shared his experience with this.
It would be better for others in the field who might hit the same kinds of problems.

If Iseminger does not with to share his experience, he should be "relieved".

I certainly won't be carrying the message for you when I go back,

Good plan there, OAS

so I'm not certain what you think this continued venting will accomplish...

I'll get to that in a moment.

I'd be interested to hear about your own excavation and site supervisory experience, EP. I assume it must be prodigious if you're so critical of guys that have been at it for decades.

My excavation experience is limited to digging up the Mayor's back yard as a member of the Fredericksburg Area Chapter of the Archaeological Society of Virginia.

In 1799, the locals held a horse race to the south of town and everyone got stinking drunk. The town caught fire and burned down before anyone got back.

My forte is not surface collection, (bad eyes for that, I did it on a local tavern site), nor excavation, but finding sites. Often they are large enough even for the vision impaired to see.

I also appear to be not too good at saving sites yet, as my contributions to saving the site of Tecumseh's village at Greenville appear to have had no impact at all.

I do what I can, and many other of my fellow descendants find that good. Quite frankly, most of us gag at how the sites and remains are handled by the various authorities.

What can I do? I can often tell you who built them, and how they were used, which is something that many people can not do.

So when I tell you to open your units at the base and on the sides of a "Mississippian" temple platform, you probably want to listen, and consider those words carefully.

And when I advise you on the use of metal detectors in the field and the problem of looters, the same thing is true.

[oldarchystudent]

We had another guy (Beagle) here who volunteered with Al Goodyear at the Topper Site in South Carolina. He called it a great experience.


(Depends on how much you like heat and humidity, I guess.....not that Texas is any bargain in the summer.)

Topper was another I've been looking into. Love the warning about the aligator....

It's quite a bit more expensive than Cahokia or Gault though, if I remember correctly.

Maybe we should all agree to go volunteer at the same place sometime. Put faces to the names!

[oldarchystudent]

EP - I'm not going to do the quote thing because it's going to get a little cumbersome.

About your book - it's your book, I don't really care what you do and do not put into it. I'm not clear at this point if you're talking about two books or more, or if the travel guide is appended to the "impacts" book. Whatever goes into it is entirely up to you and I have no opinion or criticism there.

Looters are a potential problem at any dig, but when you start going after the artifacts first without proper site controls and attention to stratigraphy you end up with a very incomplete and amateurish dig. That's pot hunting, not archaeology. Context, where it can be preserved, is crucial. I'll agree to disagree with you on the philosophy of approaching a site as we clearly have two very different points of view.

About Isemenger - you must really have a hate on for him. First you want him fired for heavy equipment, then you want him fired for not going to SEAC. At least you're consistent that you want him fired, but I don't know when he pee'd in your cornflakes, other than the item of the Cahokia bookstore not carrying your book. Until such time as your resume matches his, I'd think twice about calling him down. Go ahead and carry that anger if you must, I clearly can't change your mind there so that's probably as good a place as any to drop that topic, don't you think?

Moving on....

I'm sorry to hear that your vision is getting in the way of your ability to participate in the activity that you clearly have a passion for. If you have written a book you must be a good researcher - perhaps there is a role for you there?

The dig in the mayor's backyard actually sounds like a lot of fun.

OAS

[E.P. Grondine]

OAS -

I did not know that Iseminger was in charge of Cahokia, and he had no role that I know in the bookstore not carrying my book.

Its the utilization of the bulldozer on the Monk's Mound, and there are a lot of other people who'd like to know what happened in detail. And they are not only archaeologists.

SEAC would be a good place to clear the air and share lessons learned.

As far as a metal detecting survey goes, unless you have 24 hour intensive site security, if you don't do it you run a high risk of being hit by looters, and end up seeing their little holes. That is unless they plan on coming back again, in which case they'll repair them.

How you retrieve and map any metal before they do depends on what's there.

[oldarchystudent]

OK - well - I guess you have your opinion on how a site should be managed, and they guy with 30 or more years of field experience has his. I know where I would put my money.

You may have noticed that my last post was an attempt to end this rather dumb conversation, but I seem to have failed. Maybe now?

[Minimalist]

Love the warning about the aligator....

And all such warnings should be carefully observed, too!!!!

[oldarchystudent]

Love the warning about the aligator....

And all such warnings should be carefully observed, too!!!!

Oh? Are you missing a chihuahua?

[Minimalist]

I've got two chihuahuas next to me and I wouldn't miss either one of them.

Yippy little rats.

[oldarchystudent]

OK - where do I find the ROFLMAO smiley?