Neanderthal and Human Interbreeding Accepted?

[E.P. Grondine]

If we accept that HE was OOA, and the first of us, to be followed later by HSS as represented by Cro-Magnon, we are faced with the problem of the origins of HSN!
If the Chinese view that they are a straight line development from HE is correct is there sufficient time for HSN to develop from HE?

You know, I can blame all the errors in my book on archaeologists and anthropologists.
Boy oh boy its nice to see others struggling with physical taxonomy now.

In my opinion, its more like a robust HE, but the word robustus is already used for an Australopithecus. That's why I went with Heidelbergensis.

Its strange to me. While the physical anthropologists can accept volcanic eruption, they are unable to mentally handle comet and asteroid impacts, even though they are physically well demonstrated and well dated.

The Zamanshan impact explains the HSS/HN split in hominid lines very well.
Note that Penaang is not mentioned in the map above.

Most likely, medium sized ancient asteroid impacts explain the formation of mt DNA haplogroups as well. As the recovery of these smaller impact structures progresses, this will likely become clear, if the physical anthropologists can make the necessary mental and emotional shift.

Next we face another problem, there are no black races in Eurasia. If HE was the colour and stature of the !Kung then the Chinese colour and stature is explained, but what then about the black Andaman Islanders and the Aborigines?

It appears that skin color in homonids can change relatively quickly, min, and is not diagnostic. We also know stature changes relatively quickly based on protein and vitamin intake.

What you are not considering is an Out of Africa, Back Into Africa scenario for the ancestors of the modern populations. Or a coastal continuum along the South Shore of the area shown in the map above.

As we've seen in Europe, just because ancient coastal sites are mostly underwater does not mean that they do not exist.

[Digit]

It was me that wrote your quotes EP.
Skin colour is identifiable from DNA according to my reading EP and changes in stature may be accompanied by changes in the morphology, (Bogin and Rios.) but skull shape and dentition doesn't. I would note from Bogin etc that the change in the US Mayans was put down to an improved diet, that is not genetic and thus would not be inherited.
The speed at which a colour change spreads through a population would be determined by the breeding/survival rate of the first off. I would expect an exponential curve.

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Yeah, I'm not sure how you did that, E.P. but whatever, I agree with Dig so no real harm done.

The whole skin color thing "sounds" reasonable...at first.

I'm inclined to think that the idea that it quickly spreads is merely an outgrowth of the OoA theory which, if said theory is to be "true" according to its proponents Must Have happened quickly and recently in order to conform to the theory. In a similar way we have Egyptologists saying that it took 20 years to build a pyramid because they insist they were built as tombs-and-tombs-only for one man and 20 years is the outside date for most reigns ( even though it is not!)

We've previously been through the vitamin D absorption discussion...and if it was a "survival issue" then dark-skinned people who moved north would have died from vitamin D deficiency before they had a chance to breed and evolve into lighter skinned beings. Then we get the "protection from heavy sunlight" idea....except Egyptian paintings show a marked difference in skin tone between Nubians and Egyptians and they shared a common border. The region was desert except for the Nile. Both populations would have been equally exposed to the sun.

But, it gets worse, we have very dark-skinned populations living in the rain forest of the Congo Basin...and New Guinea where the tree canopy is such that direct sunlight rarely reaches the forest floor. Then there is Amazonia where there is also a rain forest but the population is nowhere near as dark-skinned.

The fact that I do not have an answer does not mean that I am willing to accept OoA because too much of it does not make any sense.

[E.P. Grondine]

I am glad to see that pretty much all of us here are pretty upfront that we don't know what we don't know, as it makes speculative discussion far easier.

That speculation can lead to a hypothesis which in turn leads to the recovery of sites, which provide evidence as to the validity of a hypothesis.

In this way archaeology starts to approach a hard science.

A thought for the day:
Those archaeologists who find major sites are successful, and are rewarded with resources. Those archaeologists who do not find major sites are not successful, and are not rewarded with resources.

In this way anthropology evolves, along a very crooked course, as often sites are not found by hypothesis, and the finder sometimes carries along baggage.

Thanks for sharing frankly your information on skin color.

My current working hypothesis is that mt DNA haplogroups are useful markers.
I don't know anything with any precession about skin color variants within them, my general observation was given above.

[Cognito]

Then we get the "protection from heavy sunlight" idea....except Egyptian paintings show a marked difference in skin tone between Nubians and Egyptians and they shared a common border. The region was desert except for the Nile. Both populations would have been equally exposed to the sun.

There were four races in Seti I's Egypt circa 1290-1279bce (from left to right): Libyans, Nubians, Asians (Near East) and Egyptians. Some blacks credit Egypt's early dynasties to Nubians. Native Egyptians would argue that point.


Seti I Fresco. Courtesy of Zahi Hawass Enterprises & Legal Defence Fund

[Digit]

The various dynasties do appear to be different races on occasions, the depictions there are so good ethnicity can be distinguished, which raises an important point.
The classical Egyptians were yellow!
Tut's family were, by the classical Egyptians standards, very tall, nearly 6ft, whereas the yellow skinned ones were only a little over 5 1/2 ft tall.
Modern Egyptians seem not now to be yellow skinned, why?
The only other yellow skinned people in Africa are Bushmen, coincidence?
All the yellow races are normally of small stature, coincidence?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

Some blacks credit Egypt's early dynasties to Nubians.

The Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, c 700 BC were Nubian.

[circumspice]

There were four races in Seti I's Egypt circa 1290-1279bce (from left to right): Libyans, Nubians, Asians (Near East) and Egyptians. Some blacks credit Egypt's early dynasties to Nubians. Native Egyptians would argue that point.


Seti I Fresco. Courtesy of Zahi Hawass Enterprises & Legal Defence Fund

Thanks for posting this pic Cogs! I have never seen it before. Are those tattoos on the Libyan?

[Cognito]

The Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, c 700 BC were Nubian.

Min, Min, Min ... I'm well aware of that ... that's why I made the statement "Egypt's early dynasties". Did you forget to drink your morning coffee?

[Cognito]

Thanks for posting this pic Cogs! I have never seen it before. Are those tattoos on the Libyan?

You're welcome, Spice. And yes, those are tattoos ... along with northern Meditteranean features. The Libyans were a thorn in Egypt's side during the time of Seti I, and within a lifetime would join with the Sea Peoples to attack Egypt en masse.

[Minimalist]

I can't get my heart started without my morning coffee, Cogs. But there is no indication in the artwork of earlier Nubian dynasties.

Courtesy of Zahi Hawass Enterprises & Legal Defence Fund

Couldn't help but notice that, though. Zahi's Legal Defence Fund?

[circumspice]

I can't get my heart started without my morning coffee, Cogs. But there is no indication in the artwork of earlier Nubian dynasties.

Courtesy of Zahi Hawass Enterprises & Legal Defence Fund

Couldn't help but notice that, though. Zahi's Legal Defence Fund?

I took that caption as being tongue in cheek min...

[circumspice]

Um, I found an interesting article while searching for more info on the Seti I Fresco...

Ancient Egyptian race controversy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Eg ... ontroversy

This article is a dash of cold water in the face. I find it hard to fathom that something as beautiful as history can be so laden with personal agendas, for such a long period of time.

[circumspice]

Thanks for posting this pic Cogs! I have never seen it before. Are those tattoos on the Libyan?

You're welcome, Spice. And yes, those are tattoos ... along with northern Meditteranean features. The Libyans were a thorn in Egypt's side during the time of Seti I, and within a lifetime would join with the Sea Peoples to attack Egypt en masse.

Cogs, wouldn't that be southern Mediterranean features? Libya is on the southern coast of the Med and many of the people have in Libya have much the same features as the Libyan on the Seti I Fresco.

[Minimalist]

The Denkmaeler plate 136 ab also from Seti's tomb. The various subject people of the empire are depicted in the presence of Horus. There is no indication on the part of the artist that the Nubians were in any way singled out for lesser status than the rest. The same pose, the same posture, the same size as everyone else.