What if Julius Caesar had not been murdered?

[Guest]

It's true that the Celtic tribes in north and west Britain were never a threat to the Empire, though they must have caused a degree of uncertainty in Britannia itself. It's one of these situations where I'd love to have a time machine!

[Minimalist]

Truthfully, what the Romans learned to do was co-opt some of the tribes nearest their borders. A little gold, a few trinkets, make the big chief a Roman citizen and let him keep things quiet. It worked for them for quite a long time.

[Guest]

Minimalist,
This might interest you. It's a new history of the Roman Empire by Peter Heather- http://217.204.41.132/cgi/NGoto/2/138535954?2760
If it's on the same level as The Goths, it's well worth a read.

[Minimalist]

that the Empire was brought down by attack from the outside without any appreciable internal decline.

"Interest" is not the word, RK. That statement is going to take some pretty convincing evidence to prove. Beginning around 250 AD the Romans suffered military catastrophes and plagues which sapped the strength of the Empire and then the division into Eastern and Western Empires was the kiss of death.

I have heard comparisons made between the late Roman Empire and the Soviet Union and they are pretty convincing: A facade of power which collapsed into ruins as soon as someone kicked in the door.

YOu can bet I'll be hunting for that book at Amazon. Thanks for the tip.

[Minimalist]

Hey, RK.

My copy of Heather's book arrived today. I'll let you know.

[Minimalist]

Okay, RK, so I'm reading Heather's book and he is discussing the logic of Roman conquests.

The real reason why the Rhine eventually emerged as the frontier lay in the interaction of the motives underlying Roman expansion and comparative levels of social and economic within pre-Roman Europe. Roman expansion was driven by the internal power struggles of republican oligarchs such as Julius Caesar and by early emperors' desires for glory. Expansion as the route to political power at Rome had built up momentum at a point where there were still numerous unconquered wealthy communities around the Mediterranean waiting to be picked off. Once annexed they became a new source of tribute flowing into Rome, as well as making the name of the general who had organized their conquest. Over time, however, the richest prizes were scooped up until, in the early imperial era, expansion was sucking in territories that did not really produce sufficient income to justify the costs of conquest. Britain, in particular, the ancient sources stress, was taken only because the emperor Claudius wanted the glory. With this in mind, the limits of Rome's northern expansion take on a particular significance when charted against levels of economic development in non-Roman Europe."

(Underlining added.)

So, it looks like you Brits should be happy that Claudius was a glory hound otherwise you might still be painting yourselves blue!

[Beagle]

I dunno Mini - I think only the Picts and later many of the Scots were the ones that were fond of blue.

[Minimalist]

From Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic Wars. Book Five on his first invasion (really a reconnaisance in force) of Britain.

XIV.--The most civilised of all these nations are they who inhabit Kent, which is entirely a maritime district, nor do they differ much from the Gallic customs. Most of the inland inhabitants do not sow corn, but live
on milk and flesh, and are clad with skins. All the Britons, indeed, dye
themselves with wood, which occasions a bluish colour, and thereby have
a more terrible appearance in fight. They wear their hair long, and have
every part of their body shaved except their head and upper lip. Ten and
even twelve have wives common to them, and particularly brothers among brothers, and parents among their children; but if there be any issue by these wives, they are reputed to be the children of those by whom respectively each was first espoused when a virgin.

[Beagle]

Well - even though that was in France, I'll accept it as point made.

Omnia Gallia en tres partes est.

[Beagle]

I thought that was from the Gallic wars - my mistake

[Minimalist]

Caesar had an unusual interpretation of "his" assigned province. His wanderings led him to all of Gaul, Germany and Britain.

He got around.

[Guest]

Minimalist,
Sorry, I missed your post about the book arriving. He's a good historian, so I bet it's a cracking read.

[Minimalist]

So far it is. I still think he has a tremendous burden to meet his thesis but, we'll see.