Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:24 am

It seems that I missed a lot yesterday afternoon. Clicking on the links is just as easy though.

alrom · Post by **alrom** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:00 am

Beagle wrote:I still believe this is the best site on the web, Stellarchaser, for the free flow of ideas. Don't give up yet. There are often disagreements here but that's what keeps a person thinking and not becoming too rigid minded.

Yep, it's a big mistake to try to silence the ones that disagree with you.

Fortuneteller · Post by **Fortuneteller** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:05 am

Paul H. wrote:I would really love to get pictures of these and other "excavations" along with data as to where they are located and permission to use them in a talk and, eventual paper, about pseudo-archaeological sites on which I am working.

Best

Paul H.

Paul, I might be writing a paper too. My understanding is that I don't need any special permission, because all the material has been made public through the official media. It is enough to provide references like in any other scientific paper. Right?

Ciko · Post by **Ciko** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:20 am

How do you know if you haven't been there?

how i know, beacuse i read everythinmg what happend over there, every "stone" they find they raport , even most visit from scientists, business man , and other , they raport everything what happend, nothing is secret with this project

you say geologist say it is a natural , ok , but those geologists who say that this is natural , they where there only 2 hourse before excavations started , and they analized photos from osmangichs book

and if you believe them , fine, but osmanagich said yester day that it is correct what they said , that this holes where they digg it was natural, but , it is natural material wigh is shaped by man , and that is a bigg diefference

those geologists never visited sonds , so if you believe them just fine

It is obviously possible to identify something by looking at a picture of it.

they analized these photos

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age116.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age118.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age123.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age130.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age116.jpg

BUT they never visited this sonds, so how profesional is that ???????????

Of course it's easier if you can look at it on the spot, and sometimes you won't be able to do it at all.

fonadation bosnian pyramid od the sun , ask them to come agains and see sonds , but they never came back

Geologists have identified most of the rocks at the pictures of the excavation as natural, and have given reasons for it.

no no no

they have not , they have never answered how , stone blocks where crated, and how came that white material between stone blocks

they never gave answer

And the geologists that went there and did tests concluded that it was a natural hill.

They did those tests before the excavation started. So what? That only means that Osmanagic and the others started the excavation after the geology study. I don't know if they knew the results or if they just started the excavation without waiting for them.

evebn osmangich say that it is natural material, like geologists who said tha this is natural , but difference is that this natural material is shaped by man, do you understand what i say

and remember Barakat is a month over there and works 15 hours a day , and he said tha this is a primitive pyramid,

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:22 am

stellarchaser wrote: But geologist who is there now for a whole month Mr. Barakat, confirmed that some of the stone blocks are definitely man-made,

He may have been there for a month now, but his pronouncement on it being a "primitive pyramid" was made after he had been there exactly ONE DAY. That's something I pointed out several times in the other thread, before people started slagging off the English expert for only having spent 15 minutes there. There seem to be one set of rules for pro-Osmanagich experts, and a different one for everyone else.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:26 am

RK et al - I see it said here over and over that The English archaeologist spent 15 minutes there. Where is that coming from? I haven't thought it was true but it keeps being said.

Ciko · Post by **Ciko** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:26 am

He may have been there for a month now, but his pronouncement on it being a "primitive pyramid" was made after he had been there exactly ONE DAY.

yes, but the excavations started a month before Brakat came, so he had results wich he analized

That's something I pointed out several times in the other thread, before people started slagging off the English expert for only having spent 15 minutes there.

NO NO NO NO

he has not spent 15 on sonds, he walk or drived a car close to the visocica hill 8 juni after 20:00 a clock , and 9 juni he had conference

Mario gerussi who is director said, he never seen him there

There seem to be one set of rules for pro-Osmanagich experts, and a different one for everyone else.

no no no

everyone is welcome, to analize results profesionaly , not like Harding

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:32 am

Ciko wrote: [NO NO NO NO he has not spent 15 on sonds, he walk or drived a car close to the visocica hill 8 juni after 20:00 a clock , and 9 juni he had conference

So why do other people keep lying about it?

Ciko wrote:Mario gerussi who is director said, he never seen him there

And did Gerussi know him personally in order to to recognise him?!

Ciko wrote: everyone is welcome, to analize results profesionaly , not like Harding

When did Barakat analyse the results professionally? He may have had data to study, but he made his pronouncement exactly ONE DAY after arriving. So basically he read them, and because they said what he WANTED to hear, he agreed with them. No objective counter-study, no analysing conflicting reports. He's a yes-man, which is why the rest of us don't believe him.
And the same comments keep getting made about the geologists who claim it's a natural hill turning up two hours before the excavation start (allegedly), and therefore not being trustworthy. Every time the sceptics here say something, we get told to be patient because the dig has just started, but the fourth post in this new thread stated the hill was definitely a "pyramid", "bigger than the Egyptian ones", and " the mother of all pyramids".
I'm definitely seeing two sets of rules in operation here.

alrom · Post by **alrom** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:39 am

Ciko wrote:
How do you know if you haven't been there?

how i know, beacuse i read everythinmg what happend over there, every "stone" they find they raport , even most visit from scientists, business man , and other , they raport everything what happend, nothing is secret with this project

Ciko I think we both have problems with english and don't understand each other well

Sorry I can't reply to your post now, too much non-pyramid-related work to do!

DougWeller · Post by **DougWeller** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:42 am

Ciko wrote:
How do you know if you haven't been there?

how i know, beacuse i read everythinmg what happend over there, every "stone" they find they raport , even most visit from scientists, business man , and other , they raport everything what happend, nothing is secret with this project

you say geologist say it is a natural , ok , but those geologists who say that this is natural , they where there only 2 hourse before excavations started , and they analized photos from osmangichs book

those geologists never visited sonds , so if you believe them just fine

It is obviously possible to identify something by looking at a picture of it.

they analized these photos

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age116.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age118.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age123.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age130.jpg

http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH ... age116.jpg

BUT they never visited this sonds, so how profesional is that ???????????

Of course it's easier if you can look at it on the spot, and sometimes you won't be able to do it at all.

fonadation bosnian pyramid od the sun , ask them to come agains and see sonds , but they never came back

Geologists have identified most of the rocks at the pictures of the excavation as natural, and have given reasons for it.

no no no

they have not , they have never answered how , stone blocks where crated, and how came that white material between stone blocks

they never gave answer

And the geologists that went there and did tests concluded that it was a natural hill.

They did those tests before the excavation started. So what? That only means that Osmanagic and the others started the excavation after the geology study. I don't know if they knew the results or if they just started the excavation without waiting for them.
evebn osmangich say that it is natural material, like geologists who said tha this is natural , but difference is that this natural material is shaped by man, do you understand what i say

and remember Barakat is a month over there and works 15 hours a day , and he said tha this is a primitive pyramid,

This is getting a bit confusing.

Who believes Barakat is working 15 hours a day? I certainly don't. Why would anyone do that? What in the world could he do for that amount of time anyway?

The blocks are almost certainly jointed bedrock (although as there are old ruins on these hills some will belong to them).

Are you really telling me the Foundation paid the Tuzla geologists to analyse pictures and didn't give them access to the actual cores? That is pretty bad of the Foundation if true, but I suspect you are wrong about this (and other things).

Have you actually read their report? Where did you find it?

Here is what Fortuneteller wrote:
"I read the full version of the Tuzla report, and I will try to describe the document. Please note that I am not a geologist, and that my review of the document does not have to be accurate. However, it is probably enough that you get an idea about the content.

The geologists from Tuzla read the report provided by Osmanagich’s geologists, primarily geologist Nadja Nukic. Here is the link (Osmanagich’s site):http://www.piramidasunca.ba/eng/podmeni ... kt2005.doc

Please note that the report is not complete. If you look at the table of contents, you may notices that appendices are missing. At least they were missing tonight, June 11, 2006.

The Tuzla geologist had a document similar to this one but in Bosnian. However, I don’t know which version of the document that they read. The Bosnian and English versions are not identical. Here is the link on the Bosnian version.

The second report that relevant for the Tuzla document is written by Osmanagich and contains “scientific proofs” about existence of the “Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun; Discovery of the First European Pyramid”. Here is the link:
http://www.alternativnahistorija.com/AH8.htm

I tried to translate only one part of the document that describes discrepancies between the geological reports provided by Osmanagich’s geologists and Osmanagich’s book, and here is my “naïve” translation.

After described geological research Mr. Semir Osmanagich wrote a book “Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun”. In this book the author made us know that the results of the geological research were not used as a basis for making conclusions about the “pyramid”. Herein we will list several proofs:
1. On page 150 of his book, Mr. Osmangich describes profile of the well B-1 and points out: “At a depth of depth 3.7m, clay changes into marlstone, which is geologically impossible, because of a very short period (“it cannot happen in 20,000 years”).
Geologist Nadja Nukic in her report had not recorded this data as anomalies. On profile B-1 at a depth of 3.7m clay changes into clay marlstone, which is entirely natural.
2. On page 159 Mr. Osmanagich wrote: “At a depth of 4.7m (B-1), a “brown stone”, which would become the main mystery of these probings, is found for the first time.
Geologist Nadja Nukic did not see that as an anomaly. On the profile of the well B-1 at 4.50-5.85m, she noticed clay iron carbonate sandstone.

3. On page 151, Mr. Osmanagich explained: “There is a very important anomaly at 7.80m: marlstone, gravel and traces of black (organic material)”
Geologist Nukic commented that there are “clay, marlstone, and coal with gravel and sand”, but she emphasized that some material falling from the walls of the well could occur.

4. On page 153, Mr. Osmanagich wrote: “at a depth of 9.90 to 10.20m (B-1) there is a layer of “decorative stone” with traces of iron (?)”
This has not been considered an anomaly by geologist Nukic. On the profile in the interval from 9.90-10.20m, she separated breccia conglomerate.

There were 9 examples of discrepancies described. The second part of the Tuzla report described the probing that their team performed at the site. They confirmed “determination of sediments” given by geologists Nukic and Kovacevic. However, they concluded that “anomalies” that are described in Osmanagich’s book do not exist.

As you know, in their final conclusion they wrote that, in their opinion, the hill is a natural formation.

I repeat, I am not a geologist and this translation does not have to be accurate. However, the team from Tuzla did state that “the proofs” provided by Osmanagich are not based on the geological reports.

The document was downloaded from the Internet. Is it possible to get a copy directly from the faculty in Tuzla? In that case we would know that we have a real reference here. That would be my first step. Could somebody ask for a copy? Katherine? Doug?

The faculty may even decide to provide a professional translation. There is nothing to lose if we ask. At worst they can say “no”. We still have our “cyberspace” copy.

It is also very important to give a fair opportunity to Osmanagich’s team to prepare their reports and challenge the Tuzla report. Osmanagich promised the scientific reports by the end of June. Remember?"

End quote from Fortuneteller

Doug

Ciko · Post by **Ciko** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:46 am

So why do other people keep lying about it?

beacuse bosnian archelogists and historians lied to media and media take this without know the real truth

bosnian archelogists said that osmangich and company destroy old city on topp of the hill but there is know excavatuions, they have lied all time

and thet really pissed me off

And did Gerussi know him personally in order to to recognise him?!

i dont know

When did Barakat analyse the results professionally?

he doing it all time , when he came to visoko he took hammer to see how stone blocks look inside, and he found this white material wich connects stone blocks , and he did some other analisise and after a 1 hour he said tha this is man made

He may have had data to study, but he made his pronouncement exactly ONE DAY after arriving. So basically he read them, and because they said what he WANTED to hear, he agreed with them. No objective counter-study, no analysing conflicting reports. He's a yes-man, which is why the rest of us don't believe him.

he has sent some raport to zahi hawass about ALL THIS , SO I HPE WE ALL SHALL READ IT

And the same comments keep getting made about the geologists who claim it's a natural hill turning up two hours before the excavation start (allegedly), and therefore not being trustworthy.

it is natural, but it is shaped by man, do you understand man, ??????????

even osmangich say tha this is natural , but geologists never saw this stone blocks, they never visited this place

Every time the sceptics here say something, we get told to be patient because the dig has just started, but the second post in this new thread stated the hill was definitely a "pyramid", "bigger than the Egyptian ones", and " the mother of all pyramids".

osmanagich said this "the mother of all pyramids". beacuse he believe tha this is 100% a pyramid, like Barakat said a week ago , "if you ask me if this a pyramid i will tell you yes yes yes all time"

Ciko · Post by **Ciko** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:49 am

Who believes Barakat is working 15 hours a day? I certainly don't.

he is there from 8:00 to 20:00

then when he is in his hotel he analized stuff what he found and discuss with other scientist

DougWeller · Post by **DougWeller** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:54 am

Ciko wrote:
He may have been there for a month now, but his pronouncement on it being a "primitive pyramid" was made after he had been there exactly ONE DAY.
yes, but the excavations started a month before Brakat came, so he had results wich he analized

That's something I pointed out several times in the other thread, before people started slagging off the English expert for only having spent 15 minutes there.
NO NO NO NO he has not spent 15 on sonds, he walk or drived a car close to the visocica hill 8 juni after 20:00 a clock , and 9 juni he had conference

Mario gerussi who is director said, he never seen him there

There seem to be one set of rules for pro-Osmanagich experts, and a different one for everyone else.
no no no

everyone is welcome, to analize results profesionaly , not like Harding

Why would Gerussi see him there? Harding specifically didn't want an official tour. And if he wasn't seen (and Gerussi said none of the staff saw him there), where does the 15 minutes come from? I'm trying to find out. I agree it was brief.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:58 am

Ciko wrote:beacuse bosnian archelogists and historians lied to media and media take this without know the real truth

No, that's just your OPINION.

Ciko wrote:bosnian archelogists said that osmangich and company destroy old city on topp of the hill but there is know excavatuions, they have lied all time

Again, how do YOU know that? In the other thread, someone stated there was no old city on top of the hill, because they couldn't see it. That's the root of the problem; Osmanagich and his puppets are exploiting the hopes and naive beliefs of people who aren't in a position to argue with their "findings".

Ciko wrote: i dont know

So Gerussi could be telling a pack of lies for all you know.

Ciko wrote: he doing it all time , when he came to visoko he took hammer to see how stone blocks look inside, and he found this white material wich connects stone blocks , and he did some other analisise and after a 1 hour he said tha this is man made

How do you KNOW? Have the results of these tests been posted somewhere so that the rest of us can check them?

Ciko wrote:]he has sent some raport to zahi hawass about ALL THIS , SO I HPE WE ALL SHALL READ IT

There's no actual proof that Hawass even sent this guy to start with; it's all speculation.

Ciko wrote:it is natural, but it is shaped by man, do you understand man, ??????????

Do YOU understand? Osmanagich has repeatedly claimed that this hill was built before the last Ice Age. So it allegedly was shaped by man, then survived thousands of years under ice, and several centuries under water, and you want me to believe that none of that had an effect on it; it STILL looks like a "pyramid"? Get real.

Ciko wrote:osmanagich said this "the mother of all pyramids". beacuse he believe tha this is 100% a pyramid, like Barakat said a week ago , "if you ask me if this a pyramid i will tell you yes yes yes all [time"

Believing something to be true isn't the same as being able to PROVE it. So far, neither of them have done that, but they want to be taken seriously.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:23 pm

Once again I must say that this is like the three blind men trying to describe an elephant when each of them is holding a different piece.

I think science has seen this so many times, historically, that it's a wonder there's any progress at all.