Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

[stellarchaser]

You think the world is your playground and that you can do whatever you want? Well, you can't.

That should apply to Osmanagic too...

Osmanagic is in his country, obeying his country's laws, and he works with the full support of his country's goverment. Anything illegal in that?

[Beagle]

http://dailygrail.com/node/3187

Submitted by Colette M. Dowell on Sun, 18/06/2006 - 5:21pm.
Dr. Dowell and Dr. Schoch will be visiting the “Bosnian Pyramids”

Hello Everyone,

This is Robert Schoch writing. I have been following the controversy over the “Bosnian Pyramids.” So far, all I have seen are miscellaneous articles in the popular media and various analyses that have been released thus far. In my opinion, the controversy that the alleged pyramids have engendered is fascinating unto itself in terms of the sociology of science and popular culture, how arguments between “experts” and “amateurs” are framed, and the tactics both sides utilize (especially certain “experts” as they attempt to outright dismiss the work of people who do not belong to their “club”). But, beyond that, I would like to know what exactly is going on with the Bosnian Pyramids in terms of potential ancient occupation and usage of the site.

The dominant question for many people currently is: Are the Bosnian Pyramids natural, artificial, or somewhere in between? At this point it is premature for me to attempt an answer to this question, but I certainly have a preliminary working hypothesis. My impression, based on the limited data I have seen, is that the Bosnian Pyramids may have started out as natural hills that were subsequently used and modified. If this is the case, there are certainly similar examples elsewhere in the world. The Great Pyramid of Egypt, the exemplar of all pyramids, is built over an original natural mound structure. But, I must stress that this is simply a working hypothesis concerning the alleged Bosnian Pyramids. One has to be very careful when trying to figure out if a large pyramid-like structure is natural, artificial (man-made), or somewhere in between (for instance a natural feature that was purposefully used and/or modified by humans, a concept sometimes referred to as terraforming [Earth-shaping], although this term originally referred to hypothetically modifying another planet, such as Mars, to become Earth-like and potentially inhabitable by Earthlings).

I cannot judge the Bosnian Pyramids without adequate data. I really need to be able to gather data in such areas as the following: The local stratigraphy (here I am speaking both geologically and archaeologically), the larger cultural and geologic/geomorphologic context of the supposed pyramids, associated ancient occupation sites and possible artifacts, the much heralded tunnels, mining and quarrying activities, tool marks, and so on and so forth. To try to judge based on a few photographs, a handful of satellite images, and miscellaneous statements that are often contradictory (and which have in some cases been subject to mistranslation and misunderstanding), is not my approach. I learned long ago that photographs can be misleading (photographs of features that “clearly look artificial” can be of natural features, and vice versa), and few “authorities” are unbiased.

The only way that I hope to get a valid sense of the Bosnian Pyramids is to see all of the important, and controversial, features firsthand with adequate time to really analyze what is going on. I am pleased to be able to say that such an opportunity has presented itself. As readers of The Daily Grail already know, my colleague and friend Dr. Colette Dowell has been in direct contact with Sam Semir Osmanagich and Mario Gerussi of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation. They have generously invited Colette and me to visit the site and study the pyramid structures and associated features. We will be there in late July and early August. I am looking forward to the trip, and I plan to apply my geological expertise to the problem of the Bosnian Pyramids. As we prepare for the trip, we invite readers to share with us specific ideas and suggestions as to things you would like us to look at in particular when we are there.

Also, as I write this, I am visiting with Colette for a few days (through Thursday the 22nd June 2006), so if you would like for me to address any questions at the moment, I will do my best to.

Warm regards to all,

Robert Schoch

» Colette

Dr. Schoch is a Yale University educated geologist. He is very much his own man, and I think we can rely on him giving his best scientific and unbiased opinion regarding these excavation sites.

Undoubtedly, he may be disagreed with by one side or the other, or even both sides. That won't effect his scientific opinion however. He has already ostracized himself somewhat from the archaeological community due to his opinions regarding the weathering of the sphinx enclosure in Egypt. However, fellow geologists have been slowly starting to agree with him. Though not the majority certainly.

His entry into the fray, so to speak, will be interesting.

[stellarchaser]

You think the world is your playground and that you can do whatever you want? Well, you can't.

That should apply to Osmanagic too...

Stellarchaser, you're painting all this as if all the people that think there's no pyramid there say so because they hate Bosnia and don't want to see Bosnia having it, being the original source of civilization, etc. That's simply not true (at least myself I think Visoko (and the hill) looks like a nice place )

If people say that there's no pyramid they do so because they think Osma and friends are wrong.

Dear Alrom,

if you read all my posts here, you'll noticed that I never claimed that there's a pyramid on Visocica Hill. I was mentioned that Visocica Hill is in the shape of the pyramid (which is), and that Visocica Hill is possibly rich archeological site, because it's in the area that is settled from neolithic times. I also said that pyramids have been found in Greece, so why is so outragous to think about the possibility that there's pyramid in Bosnia too.

But I never claimed that there is a pyramid in bosnia, nor that any of the pictures we've seen here or proofs presented here ever proved that there is pyramid at Visocica. So let's put aside pyramid at the moment.

What pains me attitude of the people: Mr Harding comes hiding and sneaking in my country, according to his words visited site briefly, and also according to his words he didn't visit whole excavations. And then he boldy goes to the press, claiming that everything is natural. Is that proper way to asses things? Without a one single word with archeologist or geologist at the site? And without visiting all parts of excavations?

And I ask you now : Who is alienating who? Why should any other scientist behaving like Harding, be welcomed here? I don't have anything against scientists who are sceptical. Being sceptical is in scientist's nature, and it should be like that. But we won't allow this dirty games against the excavations. Harding played that dirty game, but I'm affraid that he'll be the first who'll pay high price for that, when excavations results are presented.

Scientists here are asking me questions that should be addressed to osmanagich or Visoko Museum. "Where is a proof, where ere results, etc" So there's no communication at all. And there is civilized way to communicate. Osmanagich is very kind person, so are the people at Visoko Museum. So address them.

All we getting here is Osmanagic this, osmanagich that. So what? He is a free person, and he can say whatever he wants. Scientists here don't have that freedom, they are like rabbits repeating "party line". And party line is obviously now to spitt and to halt excavations. And that simmply won't do.

Yes, osma nad friends can be wrong, but that possibility is always open in science. Let's see what results will be, instead of spiiting and trying to stop excavations, because "it's nothing there". And if you see from beagle's post, Osmanagic IS communicating with science:)

And you are right, Bosnia is nice place:) Come whenever you like, you won't be dissapointed. lots of history, lots of archeology, cheap beer and most beatiful girls in the world

I'm very sorry that archeologists from the world don't have more friendly approach. Visococa will be excavated in hext five to ten years, and lot's of things will be found.

[Beagle]

When Dr. Schoch (see earlier post) refers to the manner in which "experts" dismiss amateur archaeologists there is a perfect example in this case.

I have heard it said that Dr. Hardings trip was only 15 min. That is too hard for me to believe. What I think everyone can agree on is that it was a token visit, as his mind was already made up.

If Dr. Schoch were to agree with Dr. Harding entirely, we can rest assured that it will be after a fair and comprehensive analysis. It is totally beyond me why the archaeological establishment wants to continually alienate the general public with such attitudes.

[stellarchaser]

When Dr. Schoch (see earlier post) refers to the manner in which "experts" dismiss amateur archaeologists there is a perfect example in this case.

I have heard it said that Dr. Hardings trip was only 15 min. That is too hard for me to believe. What I think everyone can agree on is that it was a token visit, as his mind was already made up.

If Dr. Schoch were to agree with Dr. Harding entirely, we can rest assured that it will be after a fair and comprehensive analysis. It is totally beyond me why the archaeological establishment wants to continually alienate the general public with such attitudes.

I totally agree, Harding came to Bosnia only to have press conference where he'll say his opinion, regardless on findings on the ground. If we put pyramid aside, there are stll many reasons to continue excavations.

And I believe that will get right answer from Mr. Schoch; as you say he's respected geologist. The fact that acheologists don't like him is that Mr.Schoch wasn't repeating their "party line" and wasn't slave of their Dogma. Same as Mr.barakat, who is also respected geologist - he said things they don't like to hear, and all of the sudden, he's not reliable.

I'm really looking forward to Mr.Schoch's oppinion.

[f9]

If I am Mr Sam I will never deal with Mr Schoch.
In fact he is debunker-sceptic.Sometimes it is good to be sceptic,but not all the time.

[Guest]

What pains me attitude of the people: Mr Harding comes hiding and sneaking in my country, according to his words visited site briefly, and also according to his words he didn't visit whole excavations. And then he boldy goes to the press, claiming that everything is natural. Is that proper way to asses things? Without a one single word with archeologist or geologist at the site? And without visiting all parts of excavations?

For someone who spent pages in the other thread accusing the rest of us with having an obsession with Osmanagich, YOU seem quite obsessed with Tony Harding yourself!
If the display of macho Bosnian egos here is anything to go by, there's no point in UNESCO going to Visoko; even if they stated there was no pyramid there, we would be subjected to pages of irate people calling UNESCO down to the lowest. And you know it.

[stellarchaser]

What pains me attitude of the people: Mr Harding comes hiding and sneaking in my country, according to his words visited site briefly, and also according to his words he didn't visit whole excavations. And then he boldy goes to the press, claiming that everything is natural. Is that proper way to asses things? Without a one single word with archeologist or geologist at the site? And without visiting all parts of excavations?

For someone who spent pages in the other thread accusing the rest of us with having an obsession with Osmanagich, YOU seem quite obsessed with Tony Harding yourself!
If the display of macho Bosnian egos here is anything to go by, there's no point in UNESCO going to Visoko; even if they stated there was no pyramid there, we would be subjected to pages of irate people calling UNESCO down to the lowest. And you know it.

We're going to respect and accept ANY UNESCO assesment, as long it's done in proper scientific way. In other words, we expect them to come with scientific team which would EXAMINE the site in SCIENTIFIC WAY. And we also expect that this examination lasts more than 15 minutes, or an hour, or even two hours, because the site itself is much larger than you can see on the pictures.

Or we're asking too much?

I don't believe that Mr.Harding done that. I just wonder how you would react if someone else would do Mr.Harding's magic trick "I know it all", in your country. Why don't you call him to your country to do his Houdini's tricks.

Unlike many people who wanted to stop UNESCO visit, we are loking forward to that visit. We have nothing to hide. And we strongly believe that UNESCO visit will be fair and unbiased.

If you really think that Mr.Harding done his assesment in proper way, then there's really no point of any dialogue here. That what he's done is embarassment for archeology in a whole.

[stan]

I am glad that geologists are getting involved in this controversy.

IMHO, archaeology, history, and anthropology are derivative or interdisciplinary sciences, whereas geology is much closer to "hard sciences," like chemistry and physics.
In other words, the interdisciplinary sciences are dependent on findings of the hard physical sciences (and mathematics) to undergird their own
projections and conclusions. But geology doesn't need to mix in the
messy affairs of humans....art, history, religion, ethnography, etc.

And (maybe I am wrong about this), I imagine that there is less
disagreement and "interpretation" in the physical sciences.
(I realize that there are fringe disagreements in all disciplines.)

I have known geologists, who have taught the subject in colleges, as well as having done practical field work for oil companies, governments, and other agencies. This work would not be supportable if it were not trustworthy. (I realize anyone can make mistakes, but eventually these become apparent.)

Perhaps more than anyone they have the expertise to distinguish what is natural vs. manmade, because their entire discipline is based on understanding natural formations in a no-nonsense way. They study
Chemical and physical changes in minerals, changes in the earth's surface, stratigraphy, volcanism, movement of tectonic plates, weathering, erosion, climate change, and so on.

Their work is inherently objective, and that is a sweet, refreshing breeze in Bosnia and on this board.

[alrom]

And (maybe I am wrong about this), I imagine that there is less
disagreement and "interpretation" in the physical sciences.
(I realize that there are fringe disagreements in all disciplines.)

Yeah I believe that it's usually easier to test hypothesis in physics than in archaeology. If you claim that you have found some new particle, your colleagues will always be able to replicate your experiment and check the results. In physics in most cases you will have the subject of your theories completely available to you and your experiments. You will be able to repeat your experiment as many times as you want, you will be able to manipulate it, even destroy it. As I understand it, this can't be done in archaeology.

But I bet that in cosmology and in astronomy, where is harder (maybe impossible) to get direct measures from the subject of your study, there are as many disagreements as in archaeology

And one funny thing: as the symbol of archaeology is the pyramid, and all the loons and crazy guys come up with fringe theories about pyramids and stuff like that, relativity is the symbol of physics and the objective of every over-creative mad pseudo-scientist. I've been approached twice by guys who claimed that they had proved that relativity was wrong. And I know that in some physics departments they are sick of having to hear those guys knocking at their doors every other day.

(P.D.: In any way I am trying to discredit archaeology as a science, I'm just trying to say that it's different from physics)

[zagor]

From these picture you can see right away from the first look that is pyramid. Right guys.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12173346/

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireSt ... ology=true

[DougWeller]

The Os' foundation was open for politicians, rock stars, the Austrian army, primary school students and tourists. Openness towards scientific communities is a totally different game.

Well, he and Visoko Museum have right to invite anyone they wants. So far there are scientists from Egypt and Greece, soon to be expected more from Serbia Croatia and Slovenia and some other european countries. So again, what makes you think that any scientist can come here, just because it's his wish? Why they should be welcomed here, especially if they sneak around like Mr. Harding? You think the world is your playground and that you can do whatever you want? Well, you can't. At least not in Bosnia.

Do I gather then that foreigners aren't allowed there without permission and escorts? Because that is exactly what you are saying.

[Guest]

I don't believe that Mr.Harding done that. I just wonder how you would react if someone else would do Mr.Harding's magic trick "I know it all", in your country. Why don't you call him to your country to do his Houdini's tricks.

Because we don't pretend to have a 12,500 year old pyramid in Britain.

If you really think that Mr.Harding done his assesment in proper way, then there's really no point of any dialogue here. That what he's done is embarassment for archeology in a whole.

That's just YOUR unqualified opinion, as a somewhat biased layman.

[Minimalist]

Nice to see experts getting involved....even if everyone else is still sniping at each other.

[Guest]

From these picture you can see right away from the first look that is pyramid. Right guys

How exactly do you work that one out? Those photos are about as revealing as the ones from Bosnia-except here they were taken AFTER archaeological surveys with real archaeologists.