Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

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DougWeller
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Post by DougWeller »

stellarchaser wrote: [SNIP]

Mr.Barakat said that he was working on egyptian pyramids, AS GEOLOGIST, for twenty years. Even if he had lied about it, he musn't know anything about egyptian pyramids. He's geologist.

So we see Mr.Hawas flying his statesments around same as some others acused by him for "halucinations". So there's not much difference between him and those he acuses. It's just a "I wash my hands" within dogmatic archeological club.
Actually, Barakat didn't claim to be working on Egyptian pyramids as a geologist for 20 years. Any such claims were made by other people. So far as I can tell there is no evidence that he has worked on Egyptian pyramids in any way -- and you do know who would be involved in giving him permission, I presume? A very small number of geologists have been given access to the Giza plateau in the last 20 years.

Maybe Hawass is upset because he has found out that people like Gerussi have been claiming, falsely, that he sent Barakat there? That seems pretty likely, and I wouldn't blame him if he was.

If you want to argue still that Barakat is an expert on Egyptian pyramids, please give us some evidence.
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Post by stellarchaser »

zagor wrote:
Minimalist wrote:
It could be that Dr. Barakat had passed “the red lines” too...


You mean....Zahi holds grudges?

:D
Dr. Barakat was one month in Bosnia and on very beginning he said the hill could be primitive pyramid and Dr Hawass was quiet and now when Barakat is back to Egypt, Dr Hawass is sending a letter to Mr. Mark Rose from Archaeology Magazine.

In my opinion this is only way how respectable people from these two fields (geology & archeology) need to approach to this issue as Dr Schoch did.

The only way that I hope to get a valid sense of the Bosnian Pyramids is to see all of the important, and controversial, features firsthand with adequate time to really analyze what is going on. I am pleased to be able to say that such an opportunity has presented itself. As readers of The Daily Grail already know, my colleague and friend Dr. Colette Dowell has been in direct contact with Sam Semir Osmanagich and Mario Gerussi of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation. They have generously invited Colette and me to visit the site and study the pyramid structures and associated features. We will be there in late July and early August. I am looking forward to the trip, and I plan to apply my geological expertise to the problem of the Bosnian Pyramids. As we prepare for the trip, we invite readers to share with us specific ideas and suggestions as to things you would like us to look at in particular when we are there.
Oh no...why to be so subtle? Some scientists know everything, they don't have to give some efforts; they just want to judge before trial is over and to stop things by writing silly letters around. Because they are keepers of the truth.
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Post by DougWeller »

zagor wrote:
Minimalist wrote:
It could be that Dr. Barakat had passed “the red lines” too...


You mean....Zahi holds grudges?

:D
Dr. Barakat was one month in Bosnia and on very beginning he said the hill could be primitive pyramid and Dr Hawass was quiet and now when Barakat is back to Egypt, Dr Hawass is sending a letter to Mr. Mark Rose from Archaeology Magazine.[/i]
Or, to put it another way, Hawass was away travelling and when HE got back to Egypt and had a chance to find out and reply to what people had been saying about him, he did so. Anything wrong with that?

As for Schoch and his friend, no one had been telling lies about them. I can imagine in particular his friend being pretty upset if they had. And why not?
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Post by Katherine Reece »

Regarding the incident with Fletcher people are failing to consider that she broke the Egyptian rules concerning the proper way to release information to the media. These rules have been in place a long time and Fletcher was well aware of them. One should not blame Hawass for Fletcher's errors.

I find it interesting that rather than wondering why Osmanagic and crew have presented another deception regarding expert "support" that some here are instead aiming their anger at Hawass. :roll:

Where is the anger or even disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Hawass sent Barakat? Where is the anger or disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Royce Richards, Grace Fegan, Allyson McDavid, Anne Handberry, and Chris Mundigler were experts working on the site when they never even set foot there?
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stellarchaser
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Post by stellarchaser »

DougWeller wrote:
stellarchaser wrote: [SNIP]

Mr.Barakat said that he was working on egyptian pyramids, AS GEOLOGIST, for twenty years. Even if he had lied about it, he musn't know anything about egyptian pyramids. He's geologist.

So we see Mr.Hawas flying his statesments around same as some others acused by him for "halucinations". So there's not much difference between him and those he acuses. It's just a "I wash my hands" within dogmatic archeological club.
Actually, Barakat didn't claim to be working on Egyptian pyramids as a geologist for 20 years. Any such claims were made by other people. So far as I can tell there is no evidence that he has worked on Egyptian pyramids in any way -- and you do know who would be involved in giving him permission, I presume? A very small number of geologists have been given access to the Giza plateau in the last 20 years.

Maybe Hawass is upset because he has found out that people like Gerussi have been claiming, falsely, that he sent Barakat there? That seems pretty likely, and I wouldn't blame him if he was.

If you want to argue still that Barakat is an expert on Egyptian pyramids, please give us some evidence.
I NEVER claimed that Barakat is expert on egyptian pyramids. According to his own words, he was comparing alleged materials connecting the stones at Visochica with those in Egypt, ie. on egyptian pyramids. So If he says: " This material is simmilar to those between the stones at egyptian pyramids,..." it is obvious that he reffers to his previous experience in Egypt.
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Post by stellarchaser »

Katherine Reece wrote:Regarding the incident with Fletcher people are failing to consider that she broke the Egyptian rules concerning the proper way to release information to the media. These rules have been in place a long time and Fletcher was well aware of them. One should not blame Hawass for Fletcher's errors.

I find it interesting that rather than wondering why Osmanagic and crew have presented another deception regarding expert "support" that some here are instead aiming their anger at Hawass. :roll:

Where is the anger or even disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Hawass sent Barakat? Where is the anger or disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Royce Richards, Grace Fegan, Allyson McDavid, Anne Handberry, and Chris Mundigler were experts working on the site when they never even set foot there?
That is the main dissapointment here. Between Osmanagich and many scientists here and worldwide there is no difference. Obviously, the excavations on Visochica is for some reason "thorn in the eye" for many, and pretty unfair game is played by all players here. Hawass wrote silly letter full of non-sense, same as MR.Rose and his company. Everyopne plays dirty here, and nobody cares what lies in and around Visochica Hill.
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Post by Frank Harrist »

Katherine Reece wrote:Regarding the incident with Fletcher people are failing to consider that she broke the Egyptian rules concerning the proper way to release information to the media. These rules have been in place a long time and Fletcher was well aware of them. One should not blame Hawass for Fletcher's errors.

I find it interesting that rather than wondering why Osmanagic and crew have presented another deception regarding expert "support" that some here are instead aiming their anger at Hawass. :roll:

Where is the anger or even disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Hawass sent Barakat? Where is the anger or disappointment at Osmanagic for saying Royce Richards, Grace Fegan, Allyson McDavid, Anne Handberry, and Chris Mundigler were experts working on the site when they never even set foot there?
Fletcher is a flake. As for Zahi, there are a few Hawass haters here. I am not among them. He is a little brash and full of himself, but I think he's done a lot for egyptology. As for Osmanagic. He's even flakier than Fletcher. I don't see how he had the credibility to get this dig started. The guy's a fruitcake. He's a liar and a con-man. I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens. It's their culture to lose so let them sleep in the bed they allowed Osmanagic to make for them. It's bringing in a lot of money, but then a real circus could have done that too. Ringling Bro's and Osmanagic are interchangeable. I see the clowns, but where are the elephants?Image
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Post by Katherine Reece »

stellarchaser wrote: That is the main dissapointment here. Between Osmanagich and many scientists here and worldwide there is no difference. Obviously, the excavations on Visochica is for some reason "thorn in the eye" for many, and pretty unfair game is played by all players here.

I spend a lot more time around archaeologists and scientists than I suspect you do. They really have very little problem with amateurs as long as the amateur follows correct scientific procedure for their work. From my website there have been four amateurs who have had their work published in journals or presented at conferences, and some of their work did contradict the mainstream thought and presented controversial opinions. They were not shut down or dismissed in any way due to their not have a bunch of letters after their names.

It is not a matter of jeaously on the part of the professionals... it is a matter of concern. I've seen quite a few pictures of the excavations ongoing in Bosnia. I have yet to see anything that resembles proper archaeological methods. You ask what is being destroyed.... possible evidence is being destroyed every day by not following these methods. Someone does not have to tear down a wall or rip up a rock to destroy information.
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Post by stellarchaser »

Katherine Reece wrote:
stellarchaser wrote: That is the main dissapointment here. Between Osmanagich and many scientists here and worldwide there is no difference. Obviously, the excavations on Visochica is for some reason "thorn in the eye" for many, and pretty unfair game is played by all players here.

I spend a lot more time around archaeologists and scientists than I suspect you do. They really have very little problem with amateurs as long as the amateur follows correct scientific procedure for their work. From my website there have been four amateurs who have had their work published in journals or presented at conferences, and some of their work did contradict the mainstream thought and presented controversial opinions. They were not shut down or dismissed in any way due to their not have a bunch of letters after their names.

It is not a matter of jeaously on the part of the professionals... it is a matter of concern. I've seen quite a few pictures of the excavations ongoing in Bosnia. I have yet to see anything that resembles proper archaeological methods. You ask what is being destroyed.... possible evidence is being destroyed every day by not following these methods. Someone does not have to tear down a wall or rip up a rock to destroy information.
Then it's proper way to react. Why any of you concerned, didn't contact Visoko Museum who is in charge of excavations? Why didn't you express your legitimate concerns, instead of spitting all your anger on one man? I'm sure they would listen ans speak with you. You'll not achieve anything on threads like this.
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Post by Katherine Reece »

stellarchaser wrote:
Then it's proper way to react. Why any of you concerned, didn't contact Visoko Museum who is in charge of excavations? Why didn't you express your legitimate concerns, instead of spitting all your anger on one man?
First of all I have no anger towards Osmanagic ... why must you see something emotional in this? (I don't spit in any way either ... that would be most unladylike :wink:).

Legitimate concerns ARE being stated. I am concerned that a man who shows no indication either in his current or past work of following correct procedures either in research analysis or excavation should be allowed to dig in what *is* a very important site. For even if (as I believe) this is a natural hill and there is not pyramid there it still is an important site for the history of the Bosnian people. Proof of destruction of evidence is in the lack of archaeological methodology.

Why would anyone at the Museum or in your government listen to me? I am not a citizen of Bosnia. As far as the experts are concerned AFAIK they have expressed their concerns to the Museum and the government there. But this is bringing money into their country, and money is a powerful incentive, especially when the region suffers a 30% unemployment rate (according to information I found on the internet).
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Post by stellarchaser »

Katherine Reece wrote:
stellarchaser wrote:
Then it's proper way to react. Why any of you concerned, didn't contact Visoko Museum who is in charge of excavations? Why didn't you express your legitimate concerns, instead of spitting all your anger on one man?
First of all I have no anger towards Osmanagic ... why must you see something emotional in this? (I don't spit in any way either ... that would be most unladylike :wink:).

Legitimate concerns ARE being stated. I am concerned that a man who shows no indication either in his current or past work of following correct procedures either in research analysis or excavation should be allowed to dig in what *is* a very important site. For even if (as I believe) this is a natural hill and there is not pyramid there it still is an important site for the history of the Bosnian people. Proof of destruction of evidence is in the lack of archaeological methodology.

Why would anyone at the Museum or in your government listen to me? I am not a citizen of Bosnia. As far as the experts are concerned AFAIK they have expressed their concerns to the Museum and the government there. But this is bringing money into their country, and money is a powerful incentive, especially when the region suffers a 30% unemployment rate (according to information I found on the internet).
You're not spitting and obviously you are a lady. But just read whole thread.

Visocica is immportant site, and people will listen. The fact is, nobody ever contacted them. In normal and nice way. Spitting on threads is not proper way to communicate with fellows scientists. There is a way to do it.

Unemployment is even higher, about 40%. But that's not the issue. Issue is that Visochica Hill region is settled from neolithic times. That region must be researched archeologically. And obviously, they need help. Proffessional help. But not silly out cries to stop excavations.
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Post by Katherine Reece »

Visocica is immportant site, and people will listen. The fact is, nobody ever contacted them. In normal and nice way. Spitting on threads is not proper way to communicate with fellows scientists. There is a way to do it.
Are you sure of this? Didn't the Bosnian experts complain from the start using proper channels? They knew who to contact after all. I have read that under the current situation there that there is not a single archaeologist on the board that approves permits.

An article in the print edition of Archaeology magazine voices the frustration of Enver Imamovic and Dubravko Lourenovic regarding the agency there that is supposed to protect national monuments. I would be shocked to discover that neither of them, or any of the other Bosnian archaeologists didn't contact someone attempting to get the work done in a more professional manner.
Unemployment is even higher, about 40%. But that's not the issue.
In a way it is, I understand there are elections upcoming and Osmanagic is quite popular in Bosnia ... what politician wants to be seen closing down the digs or replacing Osmanagic? People are making money off the tourist trade and any politician who stops that is going to find himself suffering for a lack of voters.
Issue is that Visochica Hill region is settled from neolithic times. That region must be researched archeologically. And obviously, they need help. Proffessional help. But not silly out cries to stop excavations.
Again we come to money .... with what funding should the archaeologists of Bosnia work? Osmanagic has been getting funding due to the claims he's making in the media.
“Maybe a miracle is important for people after a war.” Sighs Zilka Kujundzic, one of the Sarajevo archaeologists who signed the protest letter. She’s the last remaining prehistory specialist at Sarajevo’s National Museum, the 103 year old Austro-Hungarian complex that’s seen its funding dwindle since the war’s end. On a recent drizzly April afternoon at the unheated, deserted museum, metal scaffolding rods were piled next to Roman floor mosaics from the first and second century A.D. The prehistory wing was empty, its ceiling paintings flaking away, its walls flecked with wartime bullet holes. Two winters ago the museum closed to the public for lack of money. It was only reopened after Bosnia’s so-called high representative—one of a succession of UN-approved diplomats overseeing the 1995 peace agreement—twisted the arms of local politicians to find some extra money.

There’s still no money to heat the complex through Bosnia’s bitter winters, or to repair the empty prehistory wing. “When it’s very cold we work from home,” Kujundzic says. The Bosnian state government does not fund the museum at all; two lower levels of government chip in for meager salaries but nothing else. Kujundzic makes about $440 a month. Without money, she says, forget about extensive excavations or the kind of media blitz that Osmanagic has managed to pull off. “We don’t excavate something if we don’t have money to preserve it,” she says.

Archaeology magazine July/August 2006 page 26
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Post by Minimalist »

I've read where Italian authorities make similar complaints about the lack of funding for their many archaeological sites.

It's a damn shame. In that respect one has to give Hawass credit. He acts more like the Director of the Supreme Council of Tourism than Antiquities but he does gather money and headlines and tourism is vital to Egypt.
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Post by stellarchaser »

Katherine Reece wrote:
Visocica is immportant site, and people will listen. The fact is, nobody ever contacted them. In normal and nice way. Spitting on threads is not proper way to communicate with fellows scientists. There is a way to do it.
Are you sure of this? Didn't the Bosnian experts complain from the start using proper channels? They knew who to contact after all. I have read that under the current situation there that there is not a single archaeologist on the board that approves permits.

An article in the print edition of Archaeology magazine voices the frustration of Enver Imamovic and Dubravko Lourenovic regarding the agency there that is supposed to protect national monuments. I would be shocked to discover that neither of them, or any of the other Bosnian archaeologists didn't contact someone attempting to get the work done in a more professional manner.
Unemployment is even higher, about 40%. But that's not the issue.
In a way it is, I understand there are elections upcoming and Osmanagic is quite popular in Bosnia ... what politician wants to be seen closing down the digs or replacing Osmanagic? People are making money off the tourist trade and any politician who stops that is going to find himself suffering for a lack of voters.
Issue is that Visochica Hill region is settled from neolithic times. That region must be researched archeologically. And obviously, they need help. Proffessional help. But not silly out cries to stop excavations.
Again we come to money .... with what funding should the archaeologists of Bosnia work? Osmanagic has been getting funding due to the claims he's making in the media.
“Maybe a miracle is important for people after a war.” Sighs Zilka Kujundzic, one of the Sarajevo archaeologists who signed the protest letter. She’s the last remaining prehistory specialist at Sarajevo’s National Museum, the 103 year old Austro-Hungarian complex that’s seen its funding dwindle since the war’s end. On a recent drizzly April afternoon at the unheated, deserted museum, metal scaffolding rods were piled next to Roman floor mosaics from the first and second century A.D. The prehistory wing was empty, its ceiling paintings flaking away, its walls flecked with wartime bullet holes. Two winters ago the museum closed to the public for lack of money. It was only reopened after Bosnia’s so-called high representative—one of a succession of UN-approved diplomats overseeing the 1995 peace agreement—twisted the arms of local politicians to find some extra money.


Archaeology magazine July/August 2006 page 26

I have read that under the current situation there that there is not a single archaeologist on the board that approves permits.

There is an archeologist working there, Mrs.Cobanov.

An article in the print edition of Archaeology magazine voices the frustration of Enver Imamovic and Dubravko Lourenovic regarding the agency there that is supposed to protect national monuments. I would be shocked to discover that neither of them, or any of the other Bosnian archaeologists didn't contact someone attempting to get the work done in a more professional manner.

Osmanagich personally sent two letters to leading archeological institution in Bosnia, Sarajevo Museum, asking for proffessional help. Those letters were sent before excavations begun, and Osmanagich never got any replies. So he knew that excavations would be very difficult without team of archeologists there. And what they did? Not only that they never sent any reply, they turned to world's archeologists "crying" over Bosnian heritage. Well, that heritage is lying under the ground, thanks to decades long lazyness.

Again we come to money .... with what funding should the archaeologists of Bosnia work? Osmanagic has been getting funding due to the claims he's making in the media.

At least he's doing it well then. :wink:

There’s still no money to heat the complex through Bosnia’s bitter winters, or to repair the empty prehistory wing. “When it’s very cold we work from home,” Kujundzic says. The Bosnian state government does not fund the museum at all; two lower levels of government chip in for meager salaries but nothing else. Kujundzic makes about $440 a month. Without money, she says, forget about extensive excavations or the kind of media blitz that Osmanagic has managed to pull off. “We don’t excavate something if we don’t have money to preserve it,” she says.

Yes, but our politician are driving expensive cars and spending millions of tax payers money. Mrs.Kujundzic is just one of four million victims here. And lack of money was problem only in past 15 years. Former Yugoslavia was rich country, spending millions on archeological excavations. Visoko area was neglected, and that is truth.

I would be shocked to discover that neither of them, or any of the other Bosnian archaeologists didn't contact someone attempting to get the work done in a more professional manner.

One thing is to try to get the work done in more proffessional manner. It;s ok, and neccessary, I would say. But everybody wants to halt the excavations, including mr.Rose and others. They don't want to help in proffessional way. They just wany to stop the excavations. And there is a problem. Nobody in Bosnia would refuse that help.
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Post by Katherine Reece »

Frank Harrist wrote:I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Even if Osmanagic hasn’t destroyed a single man made artifact the ripping off and disposal of the dirt covering the area destroys evidence.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all.
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