Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

[stellarchaser]

I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Even if Osmanagic hasn’t destroyed a single man made artifact the ripping off and disposal of the dirt covering the area destroys evidence.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all

Well, thank you very much for this. At last someone with broader view.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Precisely. Those questions should have been on bosnian archeologists minds when Osmanagich contacted them asking for proffessional help. Any reasonable scientist would say at the time: "Ok, there are reasons for excavations there (I'm not reffering to a pyramid), you're not archeologist, we are, so let us be in charge of that. You do advertising bit" But no, they never replied. because they don't care.

Now they care, because they are affraid that Osmanagich could stumble on major archeological findings (again, I'm not reffering to a pyramid). And if he does, they would look stupid. Problem is that now everybody is in his trench. And let's see who will start singing Christmass song and got ouf the trench.

In the meantime, excavations on Visochica are only suffering. And it's everybody's guilt.

[Beagle]

Kat - like yourself, we armchair archaeologists have a pretty good notion of excavation techniques. And the question is a good one. We have all surfed the internet in search of information about this dig, and and have looked at dozens of photos.

If you have specific knowledge of improper and destructive techniques going on please let us know. I haven't found anything.

[Frank Harrist]

I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Even if Osmanagic hasn’t destroyed a single man made artifact the ripping off and disposal of the dirt covering the area destroys evidence.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all.

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all. I have a bit of field experience. I know that even though I'm an amteur, I'd do a better job than they are apparently doing. I agree with you, Kat, that it belongs to the world, but the world isn't having much say in what's happening there so I guess it's my way of washing my hands of a matter over which I have no control when I say I don't care. I really do, but we are all helpless as long as the ringmaster is in charge.

[Katherine Reece]

Those questions should have been on bosnian archeologists minds when Osmanagich contacted them asking for proffessional help.

Do you have any proof of this? I'm not doubting *your* word, but honestly so much misinformation has come out of the pyramid foundation I truly doubt their veracity.

[FreeThinker]

I have read it debated here that not enough professionally trained archaeologists are not helping dig the site. Here is the reason why...consider:

So an archaeologist, Bosnian or otherwise, is living his life professionally; teaching, working on digs, writing up reports and so on. One day a letter or call comes to him from a Mr. Osmanagic asking for the archaeologist's help. The archaeologist looks into Mr. Osmanagic's reputation and his claims about the site. The archaeologist, through his research, finds out that Mr. Osmanagic believes the Mayans came from Atlantis and that this "pyramid", bigger than any other pyramid anywhere else in the world, was made by an unknown Ice Age civilization 12,000 years ago. The archaelogist decides not to help Mr. Osmanagic.

Is it any wonder that the archaeologists didn't drop everything to chase after Osmanagic's Atlantian fantasy? Or, for that matter, that they express concern for the destruction of valid archaeological sites from the damage caused by Mr. Osmanagics team's attempt to "prove the unprovable" (a quote from Osmanagic himself)?

[Katherine Reece]

If you have specific knowledge of improper and destructive techniques going on please let us know. I haven't found anything.

Frank summed it up pretty well ... in all of the pictures you've seen have you seen a single grid of any type? I'm using that in particular because they could have someone screening dirt and it not be shown (its not the most exciting of pictures after all ..LOL). But using grid markers and taking depth measurements would be something that would show up in any general pictures of the excavation site. What we have seen are groups of people digging with shovels in what appears to be a quite haphard manner.

There have been people posting at Ma'at (and I realize that I can not confirm their statements) who say they have been to the site and that the work being done is very unprofessional and not being done in any sort of controlled way. We also have the statement of one archaeologist who was there for three days and left due to the unprofessional aspect of the work. (The question could be asked why he did not stay and attempt to make it better but I would point out that we do not know if he did make suggestions and was rebuffed).

[bp]

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all. I have a bit of field experience. I know that even though I'm an amteur, I'd do a better job than they are apparently doing. I agree with you, Kat, that it belongs to the world, but the world isn't having much say in what's happening there so I guess it's my way of washing my hands of a matter over which I have no control when I say I don't care. I really do, but we are all helpless as long as the ringmaster is in charge.


.

This thing really can drive me mad witha statements from Texas. Mr Frank Harris knows what is going on there.
FYI I was there first day and I was witness of the guy from the fondation who was taking samples into small bottles for the analysis. He is trained and university educated archaeologist.
What is wrong with you people, why are you making up things, for the lies like this in some countries you can end up in the court becarefull.

Regards

bp

[Beagle]

I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Even if Osmanagic hasn’t destroyed a single man made artifact the ripping off and disposal of the dirt covering the area destroys evidence.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all.

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all. I have a bit of field experience. I know that even though I'm an amteur, I'd do a better job than they are apparently doing. I agree with you, Kat, that it belongs to the world, but the world isn't having much say in what's happening there so I guess it's my way of washing my hands of a matter over which I have no control when I say I don't care. I really do, but we are all helpless as long as the ringmaster is in charge.

Frank I can't tell anything either. Whoever took all those pictures that Ciko posted is not much of a photographer. On the other hand, I don't know that they aren't doing a responsible job.

Maybe one of our European friends could find something for us that is more helpful. I know you've been on a lot of digs before Frank. Isn't it common for different "teams" to arrive at different times? I understand that they have asked for a sedimentologist to come help.

[Katherine Reece]

This thing really can drive me mad witha statements from Texas. Mr Frank Harris knows what is going on there.

bp

You must have missed Frank saying "as far as I can tell"

FYI I was there first day and I was witness of the guy from the fondation who was taking samples into small bottles for the analysis. He is trained and university educated archaeologist.

And yet we have the statement of the archaeologist who was on site and left saying that the digs were not being conducted in a professional manner.

[tj]

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all. I have a bit of field experience. I know that even though I'm an amteur, I'd do a better job than they are apparently doing.

Same here. I've been on two digs, both at Starved Rock, IL, and have maybe 20 undergrad hours in arch/anthro and what I see is amazingly sub par. The first dig was two one week sessions and the entire first week all we did was survey and plant pin flags. While we were gone inbetween sessions, the pros and another group from another college finished it.

Since I'm not there, I can't say anything with any certainty. If any of you believers want to quell this criticism, I suggest posting a link to a photograph of the grid's datum point. That would be a great start.

[Guest]

here is the latest from archaeology mag.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... pdate.html

One might have thought that the Ice Age Bosnian pyramid story would collapse like a bad soufflé, but no. Mainstream media has become somewhat more critical of stories emanating from Visoko, but much of the real work in dissecting the claims has appeared on blogs and message boards, such as The Hall of Ma'at (see "Pseudoscience in Cyberspace"). Unfortunately, the mainstream folks haven't picked up on much of this. Meanwhile, the professional community has become more outspoken, notably with a recent field trip to the site by Anthony Harding, who is president of the European Association of Archaeologists, and in response to a proposed UNESCO mission to the site.

[stellarchaser]

Those questions should have been on bosnian archeologists minds when Osmanagich contacted them asking for proffessional help.

Do you have any proof of this? I'm not doubting *your* word, but honestly so much misinformation has come out of the pyramid foundation I truly doubt their veracity.

Dear Katherine,

sorry for late answer, I presume that there is big time difference between Bosnia and USA.

To answer your question. Few weeks ago there was talk show here in Bosnia on one of the most watched TV stations. The guests were Osmanagich and the archeologist you are mentioning in your posts: Zilka Kujundzic.

Of course it was rather bitter dialogue. Osmanagich asked Mrs. Kujundzic twice: "I have sent you two letters, asking for your assistance and proffessional help. You neved replied to me. Why?"

Mrs. Kujundzic kept quiet to these questions. She didn't reply. But before, during talk show, she acused Osmanagich that he's not proffesional archeologist, and that he didn't address to proffessionals. So that obviously is not true.

Few times during the talk show Osmanagich said: "It doesn't matter what happend between us in the past, I'm still calling you and your colleagues to join us and help us with your knowledge in this project. You are always welcome to join excavations."

And she said that she wouldn't. Osmanagich asked "Why?"

"Because I don't believe there is pyramid there".

So that is her point. But problem is that Visochica Hill is settled from neolithic times. In that region were found artefacts from prehistoric, roman and mediaeval times. Visoko Town, (on the top of Visochica) was throne town of Bosnian kings. For some reason, they consider that area sacred in a way, so they have built their stone churches there (the kings). It was very signifficant, because Bosnians and their kings were protestants, trying to avoid luxury in every way. The believed that money and luxury are coming from devil. For this reason, most bosnian churches in mediaeval times were built out of wood. Only few were bulit of stone, and those were kings churches around Visoko.

Furthermore, Visochila Hill is situated about 20 miles of the sites that belong to Butmir Culture (3.500-2.500, Sarajevo region), one of the biggest and most developed prehistoric cultures of that time. Some scientists think that Butmir culture is only yourger phase of equally known and famous Vinca Culture (5.500 - 3.500) from Serbia. Vinca strata is 10,5m thick and because it's huge site, it is still not excavated in full, although excavations last from 1925 to today.

So there is every reason to excavate Visochica.

And about the pyramid. The truth is that the hill, for some reason, has shape of pyramid. I don't claim it's a pyramid, until I see some scientific proofs about it. It can be naturall phenomenom, it can be built pyramid and it can be that humans reshaped the hill (that is what Barakat thinks). In that case it would be mound, not a pyramid. Or it's just a rare natural phenomenon.

But I really can't see why is there such resistance to excavations. Major archeological findings can be found there. And that is good reason for archeologists work there. I'm affraid that their ego now is bigger than their scientific "urge". And that is the problem.

When you talk to him, Osmanagich is very kind and nice person. He has his private bussiness in the states, so he's rich enough. Furthermore, he spends his own money on his archeological "hobby"; in past 15 years he travelled around the world, visiting archeological sites. He invested his own money in preliminary probe dig in October 2005 on Visochica. So he's doing what he believes in. He is chairman of Foundation, but without salary. He's volunteering there. He pays his own bills. His books are free for Bosnians, because he knows that not many Bosnians can afford them.

And yet we see here such nasty words about him, from people who never met him.

I'm not doubting *your* word, but honestly so much misinformation has come out of the pyramid foundation I truly doubt their veracity.

I watched this talk show on TV, and I told you what I saw. I'm not working for the Foundation, and never had. Never met Osmanagich, and never been to Visoko.

I agree that so much misinformation is flying around. But I'm affraid that those misinformations are coming from both sides.

[f9]

I dont see any reason to be there archeological fine exavation exept in smoll numbered locations.What will be the reason to have exavation on geological formations?
What I have seen on the pictures it is standard procedure for any archeological dig in this part of the world.Forget all this nonsense using who knows what(technical advancements).In England probably that is standard procedure,but not in poor Balcan countries .In fact Balcan is not part of Europa,even it is not part od Asia.That means it is not on the ground,and it is not in the heaven...it is somwhere between.
So ...if somebody is caring for proper dig it will be advisable to help to Mr Sam trought Piramidal associacion account on his web side,or help in the expert way voluntering on the side.

[stellarchaser]

I only hope he doesn't destroy real archaeology while searching for this so-called pyramid. But, having said that, the Boznian government allowed him to do it so I don't really care what happens.

Unfortunately real archaeology is being destroyed. Let me explain.
Digging, even under a controlled archaeological excavation is destructive. Once the ground has been disturbed and the stratigraphical sequence of the dirt is destroyed it can not be put down for another archaeologist to examine. This is why excavation dig reports are so in depth on this information. But it’s not just the stratigraphy. Items that are in the soil that aren’t even man made tell archaeologists a lot about the history of the site. Seeds, pollen, and remains of animals all have information that archaeologists use to date a site or to determine what the people of the area were eating. When and where did they begin to domesticate food crops or animals? Who were they trading with?

Even if Osmanagic hasn’t destroyed a single man made artifact the ripping off and disposal of the dirt covering the area destroys evidence.

It's not "my" history either. My ancestors are all Irish. But I view the world's history as belonging to us all.

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all. I have a bit of field experience. I know that even though I'm an amteur, I'd do a better job than they are apparently doing. I agree with you, Kat, that it belongs to the world, but the world isn't having much say in what's happening there so I guess it's my way of washing my hands of a matter over which I have no control when I say I don't care. I really do, but we are all helpless as long as the ringmaster is in charge.

They should absolutely be screening the dirt and taking soil samples at each level. As far as I can tell they aren't doing either. Nor are they marking artifact locations. In fact I'd be real surprised if they are actually looking for artifacts at all.

Are you sure of this? Do you have any proofs for that? Even if both answers are yes, what's a point to posting it on this thread? If you are so concious person, why don't you write to Visoko Musem. I'll help you. You can start with this:

"Dear colleagues,

I'm bit concerned..."

I really do, but we are all helpless as long as the ringmaster is in charge.

That is not simply true. Write nice polite letter to a ringmaster, and I'm sure you'll get equally friendly reply. Only, if your ego allows you to do it. I mean, writing a letter to ringmaster.

[stellarchaser]

I have read it debated here that not enough professionally trained archaeologists are not helping dig the site. Here is the reason why...consider:

So an archaeologist, Bosnian or otherwise, is living his life professionally; teaching, working on digs, writing up reports and so on. One day a letter or call comes to him from a Mr. Osmanagic asking for the archaeologist's help. The archaeologist looks into Mr. Osmanagic's reputation and his claims about the site. The archaeologist, through his research, finds out that Mr. Osmanagic believes the Mayans came from Atlantis and that this "pyramid", bigger than any other pyramid anywhere else in the world, was made by an unknown Ice Age civilization 12,000 years ago. The archaelogist decides not to help Mr. Osmanagic.

Is it any wonder that the archaeologists didn't drop everything to chase after Osmanagic's Atlantian fantasy? Or, for that matter, that they express concern for the destruction of valid archaeological sites from the damage caused by Mr. Osmanagics team's attempt to "prove the unprovable" (a quote from Osmanagic himself)?

Let's be little hypothetic here. Let's say you're a british archeologist. And let's say that british goverment issued a licence for archeological excavations at Stonehenge to a group of amateur archeologists.

Would you be concerned? Most probably yes, if you are real scientist. And then you get letter from those hippies, asking for your proffessional help: "Hey freethinker, we are going to excavate this site, but we're not sure how. Will you help us here? We need some help."

So there is dilema in front of you. Are you going to say no? Possible concequences: hippies could destroy country's greatest prehistoric heritage. With government's blessing, and now with your blessing too.

You can say yes also. Possible concequences: laughs from your colleagues. But you'll stop and prevent damage. You'll make sure that the excavations are done properly.

There no doubt what any decent scientist would do. Because Visoko is bosnian Stonehenge.