Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

[Ciko]

"edge" of the pyramid of the Sun

between north and east

[Minimalist]

How about getting a little more of the dirt off of it?

[ReneDescartes]

Allowme to go back to the neolithic settlements that existed in the Balkans afew thousands of years BC .I am still awaiting evidence of the statement of advanced mathematical knowledge of the LepenskiVir civilisation .I presume thisiswhat stellarchaser was referring to :http://kravcev9.tripod.com/arch1/id2.html .Frankly I find it a nice drawing of a few stones allmost fitting in a complex methematical drawing made up about 5500 years later .THere is no relation between the two.
Look at the reconstruction of the dwelling underneath.Hardly a complex architectural construction but a very primitive shelter made of stones,branches,twigs and any material easily gathered by a semi agricultural semi nomadic tribe on the brink of settling down permanently as soon as their knowledge of agriculture allows them to stay put in one place .No signs of a scripture either .Can we accept that the primitive civilization responsible for these features do not match the prerogatives necessary expected from a civilization allocating enough free resources to build a pyramid ?Then at least we can shut of that option and timeframe .
I am willing to discuss any other circumstancial evidence linking a known or unknown civilization in the Balkans in an earlier stage of history to the eventual construction of one or more pyramids .Any clues?

[ReneDescartes]

By the way thenks Irna for joining ,I've read your site ,your arguments arewelldocumented and convincing .I've read similar statements ,they seem correct too.

[Essan]

How about getting a little more of the dirt off of it?

Well that would be the obvious thing to do. Indeed, all along the obvious thing would have been to excavate one spot and show that under the soil is a sucession of hewn stones.

Instead, it seems they keep uncovering what to most geologists looks like natural bedrock, and then move on to another spot.

They could carry on like this for years and prove nothing .....

[stellarchaser]

Allowme to go back to the neolithic settlements that existed in the Balkans afew thousands of years BC .I am still awaiting evidence of the statement of advanced mathematical knowledge of the LepenskiVir civilisation .I presume thisiswhat stellarchaser was referring to :http://kravcev9.tripod.com/arch1/id2.html .Frankly I find it a nice drawing of a few stones allmost fitting in a complex methematical drawing made up about 5500 years later .THere is no relation between the two.
Look at the reconstruction of the dwelling underneath.Hardly a complex architectural construction but a very primitive shelter made of stones,branches,twigs and any material easily gathered by a semi agricultural semi nomadic tribe on the brink of settling down permanently as soon as their knowledge of agriculture allows them to stay put in one place .No signs of a scripture either .Can we accept that the primitive civilization responsible for these features do not match the prerogatives necessary expected from a civilization allocating enough free resources to build a pyramid ?Then at least we can shut of that option and timeframe .
I am willing to discuss any other circumstancial evidence linking a known or unknown civilization in the Balkans in an earlier stage of history to the eventual construction of one or more pyramids .Any clues?

Allowme to go back to the neolithic settlements that existed in the Balkans afew thousands of years BC

It's nice how you describe neolithic culture dated 6.500 BC. As far I know, it's 4.000 thousand years before Stonehenge. If my understanding of english language is correct, "a few thousends of years BC" means just about Stonehenhe date. Lepenski Vir is 4000 years older than Stonehenge.

Frankly I find it a nice drawing of a few stones allmost fitting in a complex methematical drawing made up about 5500 years later .THere is no relation between the two.

Well, advanced mathemathics of Lepenski Vir architecture is common knowledge in archeology. If you are archeologist, I'm very suprised that you never heard of it. That only means that you need to fullfill few holes in your knowledge. I'm not sarcastic. Advanced mathematics Of Lepenski Vir is really common knowledge. Contact any of your colleagues in Serbia or in Europe, who are experts for that period.

No signs of a scripture either

Another hole in your knowledge resulted with this statement given so easily. Again, contact archeologists who are still excavating Lepenski Vir Culture. You'll find that scripture was found on several locations. (Lepenski Vir Culture is not only one archeological site, but several). Scriptures were found in recent excavations 2001 and 2003, I believe. So please inform yourself before making dubious statements.

Can we accept that the primitive civilization responsible for these features do not match the prerogatives necessary expected from a civilization allocating enough free resources to build a pyramid

I never claimed that Lepenski Vir Culture is responsible for pyramid, or that have been involved in pyramid building. I just payed attention to neolithic culture that had possessed advanced knowledge in mathematics and scripture around 6.000 BC. Again, I'm not archeologist, you are. I believe that it should be quite easy for you to check this with your colleagues archeologists (if you are the one).

As for Vinca Script, I suggest you to read the book "Vinca Script" written by famous serbian paleolinguist Radivoje Pesic. It shouldn't be a problem to find this book in online bookstores on internet. Bellow you can find short description of the book (written not by me, but by its publisher). Just for your information, Mr. Pesic was (he died unfortunatelly) real scientist with respected name and career:

THE VINCHA SCRIPT

The bilingual Serbian-English book The Vincha Script was published recently by the publishing house "Pesic and sons" / www.pesicisinovi.co.yu , E-mail: dimitri1@yubc.net /. By systematisation of the The Vincha Script paleonlinguist Radivoje Peshich expands the frontiers of the beginning of the first human scripture not only in time to deeper past /from the first scientifically confirmed Sumer from 3200BC to Vincha from 5500BC/, but in distance from Mesopotamia to Sub Danibius, more precisely to Vincha near Belgrade, the oldest Neolithic civilization in Europe, that is the First Europe.

His systematisation Peshich published in Italy for the first time in 1985 where he was University professor in Encyclopaedia and Euroanda which classified this Peshich’s thesis as the discovery of the decade.

Professor Peshich’s book of chosen works The Vincha Script was published in Belgrade in 1995 for the first time and this is its fourth bilingual edition.

The editor-in-chief and general manager of the publishing house "Pesic and Sons" is Mrs. Vesna Peshich.

Also for your information, same script was found on the archeological sites of older Lepenski Vir Culture, unfortunatelly after Mr. Pesic's death (in 2001 and 2003), so he couldn't research that scripture too. (therefore, you won't find Lepenski Vir Culture script in this book). So best way to find information about this, older scripture (6000 BC), is to contact colleaguse in Belgrade who are still excavating Lepenski Vir sites.

I also suggest you to inform yourself about pictographic letter found in Rumania. This pictographic letter is very simmilar to Sumerian pictographic letter, only that Rumanian one is 2.500 years older than Sumerian.

I hope you'll find prehistoric scriptures on Balkan Peninsula that predates Sumerian for 2.500 years very interesting.

I am willing to discuss any other circumstancial evidence linking a known or unknown civilization in the Balkans in an earlier stage of history to the eventual construction of one or more pyramids .Any clues?

Also, it is a fact that some civilization have built pyramids in Greece. Although much smaller in size than egyptian pyramids, Greek pyramids predate (around 3000 BC) pyramids in Egypt. Dating was done by Univesity of Edinbrough and Athens Academy. As we know, official history tells us that ancient Greeks inhabited Balkan Peninsula around 1500 BC. So who, or which culture have built Greek pyramids 1500 years earlier? Or which culture have been building Greek pyramids before ancient Egyptians did it? Information on Greek pyramids I think also shouldn't be hard to check with archeologists from Greece, or Athens Academy.

And finnaly, if you're interested how VINCA SCRIPT looks like, there is a link to some ohotos:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

[stellarchaser]

It is assumed that the people of Lepenski Vir culture represent the descendants of the early European population of the Brno-Psedmost hunter gatherer culture from the end of the last ice age. Archeological evidence of human habitation surrounding caves dates back to around 20,000 BC. The first settlement on the low plateau dates back to 7000 BC, a time when climate become significantly warmer.

Holding the information above for just a minute lets look at what each **pyramid** building culture or civilization has in common. For the purpose of this discussion I suggest we do not include North American Native American mounds as these are not lithic constructions.

Every pyramid building civilization has the following in common:

1 A large enough population to pull workers for pyramid construction without harming the economy or subsistence of the group.

2 A food supply that is plentiful enough to maintain a surplus. In every culture except the Peruvian this food supply is agriculture. In Peru the food supply is fish. Fish could not be the answer for other civilizations as Peru is unique in the world where its fishery is concerned. (See Michael Moseley’s “Maritime Foundation of Andean Civilization)

3 Some sort of central unifying control governmental or religious in nature.

I'm sure there are other features (art etc) but a surplus food supply and central control are the biggies. Of those two for the purposes of this argument agriculture is really the biggie, one charasmatic man can after all accomplish quite a lot.

As near as I can recall agriculture in the area has not been proven until the Vinca .. so that's 5,000 BC. If the soil from the excavation areas is not being saved, sifted, and floated then you’re not going to be able to prove what sort of foods the people were consuming and you're not going to be able to prove that they were growing their own crops. Agriculture at 12,000 years ago advanced enough to supply the kind of surplus needed to feed an army of pyramid workers is going to be *very* difficult to prove anyway.

Was Agriculture Impossible during the Pleistocene but Mandatory during the Holocene? A Climate Change Hypothesis
Peter J. Richerson, Robert Boyd, Robert L. Bettinger
American Antiquity, Vol. 66, No. 3 (Jul., 2001) , pp. 387-411

Abstract:

Several independent trajectories of subsistence intensification, often leading to agriculture, began during the Holocene. No plant-rich intensifications are known from the Pleistocene, even from the late Pleistocene when human populations were otherwise quite sophisticated. Recent data from ice and ocean-core climate proxies show that last glacial climates were extremely hostile to agriculture-dry, low in atmospheric CO2 and extremely variable on quite short time scales. We hypothesize that agriculture was impossible under last-glacial conditions. The quite abrupt final amelioration of the climate was followed immediately by the beginnings of plant-intensive resource-use strategies in some areas, although the turn to plants was much later elsewhere. Almost all trajectories of subsistence intensification in the Holocene are progressive, and eventually agriculture became the dominant strategy in all but marginal environments. We hypothesize that, in the Holocene, agriculture was, in the long run, compulsory. We use a mathematical analysis to argue that the rate-limiting process for intensification trajectories must generally be the rate of innovation of subsistence technology or subsistence-related social organization. At the observed rates of innovation, population growth will always be rapid enough to sustain a high level of population pressure. Several processes appear to retard rates of cultural evolution below the maxima we observe in the most favorable cases.


12,000 years ago is right on the line of when agriculture was possible according to this paper. I don’t see how you can have advances almost immediately that would create an agricultural system that could produce the surplus needed.

Everything I’ve read on the area doesn’t lead me to believe there was a large enough population for this type of pyramid construction either.

I'm not contesting that there were people in the area 20,000 years ago.

Many of things you said here is reasonable thinking and I'm not argue it. Especially I don't have any wish to disscuss Osmanagish's Maya-Space visions and other his theories, because I also have respect for my time.

By mentioning prehistoric Lepenski Vir, Vinca and Butmir Cultures (there were other very immportant prehistoric cultures too, like Starcevo and others) in the region, I wanted to say that Balkan region fluorished in that period. Any decent archeologist would agree with that.

Also, it is a fact that some civilization have built pyramids in Greece. Although much smaller in size than egyptian pyramids, Greek pyramids predate (around 3000 BC) pyramids in Egypt. Dating was done by Univesity of Edinbrough and Athens Academy. So equally when you quite rightly ask: which culture could be responsible for bosnian pyramids? I think I can ask same question for Greek pyramids. So who built Greek pyramids? Official science says that ancient Greeks inhabited todays Greece around 1500 BC. So who, or which culture have built Greek pyramids? Or which culture have been building Greek pyramids before ancient Egyptians did it?

Furthermore, besides other qualities, some of these cultures had some advanced knowledge, which is bit uncommon for that time.

As for a pyramid, I never claimed that there's one in Visoko. Like you, I still wait for scientific proofs. But I'm staying open for large prehistoric site in Visoko. Excavations are at the beginning, and very little we can say now, based on pictures and information we're getting.

Visochica Hill has shape of pyramid. As I said before, there are three options:

1. Some culture has built the pyramid.
2. Some culture reshaped the hill into pyramidal shape. (Barakat's theory)
3. The hill is interesting, and I would say, scarce natural formation.

As for possible archeological findings (beside confirmation for ONE of three above given options), I expect following:

1. possible findings from prehistory
2. possible findings from roman times
3. possible findings from mediaeval times.

That is what I think. Most of the things you're said, are ok. But we'll see. Only excavations can give answers wee seek.

[Beagle]

I cannot believe that you folks are having a discussion about the 12,000 year old Illyrians, etc. We have had that discussion, we all know that it is crazy, and speaking for myself, if Os had not made those statements this excavation wouldn't even be on the radar screen.

We have moved past this. Let it die.

[stellarchaser]

I cannot believe that you folks are having a discussion about the 12,000 year old Illyrians, etc. We have had that discussion, we all know that it is crazy, and speaking for myself, if Os had not made those statements this excavation wouldn't even be on the radar screen.

We have moved past this. Let it die.

I never mentioned 12.000 years old Illyrians, did I?

I spoke about neolithic cultures on Balkan peninsula from around 6.500 BC which makes this very interesting archeologically. As you can see, some of these cultures had advanced mathematics knowledge and scriptures 3000 years before Sumerians. I also mentioned unknown culture which built pyramids in Greece few hundreds years before Egyptians had built their first pyramid.

[Beagle]

No Stellarchaser you did not. The original statement by Katherine certainly was though. I should have read your reply more carefully.

I think that reading this entire thread, Part 1 and 2 should be required reading here before posting. Extreme I know - but there is so much confusion all over again.

[stellarchaser]

No Stellarchaser you did not. The original statement by Katherine certainly was though. I should have read your reply more carefully.

Yes, she was reffering to original Osmanagich's claims. I think it's better to discuss some more realistic archeological findings connected to or with Balkan Peninsula.

[alrom]

I cannot believe that you folks are having a discussion about the 12,000 year old Illyrians, etc. We have had that discussion, we all know that it is crazy, and speaking for myself, if Os had not made those statements this excavation wouldn't even be on the radar screen.

We have moved past this. Let it die.

I never mentioned 12.000 years old Illyrians, did I?

I spoke about neolithic cultures on Balkan peninsula from around 6.500 BC which makes this very interesting archeologically. As you can see, some of these cultures had advanced mathematics knowledge and scriptures 3000 years before Sumerians. I also mentioned unknown culture which built pyramids in Greece few hundreds years before Egyptians had built their first pyramid.

Hi,

I'd like to point out that a quite common phenomenon called emergence can sometimes create geometrical patterns (even complex ones i.e. fractals). I don't mean that this is the case with that particular neolithic culture. It's just like honeycombs, they are made of an hexagonal pattern which is (if I do remember well from my years of studying crystallography) the best way of tiling a plane. But obviously bees don't know shit about tiling or mathematics.

I'd like to know about that particular mathematics knowledge that those neolithic guys seemed to have.

Emergence is defined at wikipedia as:

"Emergence is the process of complex pattern formation from simpler rules."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

[stellarchaser]

For anyone interested in this, here's the link to visual presentation of Vinca Script, found in Lepenski Vir Culture (6.500 - 5.000) and Vinca Culture (5.000-3.500).

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

Please note that we're talking about some of the oldest cultures in Europe, highly advanced for that time.

[stellarchaser]

Hi,

I'd like to point out that a quite common phenomenon called emergence can sometimes create geometrical patterns (even complex ones i.e. fractals). I don't mean that this is the case with that particular neolithic culture. It's just like honeycombs, they are made of an hexagonal pattern which is (if I do remember well from my years of studying crystallography) the best way of tiling a plane. But obviously bees don't know shit about tiling or mathematics.

I'd like to know about that particular mathematics knowledge that those neolithic guys seemed to have.

Emergence is defined at wikipedia as:

"Emergence is the process of complex pattern formation from simpler rules."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Hi Alrom,

bellow you can find (also from Wikipedia) a chapter dedicated to architecure of Lepenski Vir Culture (6.500-5.000 BC)

If you read it carefully, you'll notice that : "This unique layout demonstrates the level of mathematical and geometric knowledge of inhabitants of Lepenski Vir. The peculiar choice of equilateral triangle as a basis instead of the more common round or rectangular form suggests significance of numbers in the lives of the settlement's inhabitants."

and:

"All the houses share a very distinct shape, built according to a complicated geometric pattern."

text is here:

"Seven successive settlements were discovered on Lepenski Vir site with remains of 136 residential and sacral buildings dating from 6500 BC to 5500 BC.

All the settlements follow the shape of the underlying terrain, a horseshoe shaped plateau. Settlements always face the direction of the river which was the obvious focus of life for its inhabitants. The basic layout of the settlement consists of two separate wings and a wide empty central space which served the purpose of a village square or meeting place. The settlement is radially divided with numerous pathways leading to the edge of the river. The outer edges of the village are parallel to the surrounding cliffs.

Domestic objects represent the transition from tent structure to house. All the houses share a very distinct shape, built according to a complicated geometric pattern. The basis of each of the houses is a circle segment of exactly 60 degrees constructing in the manner of an equilateral triangle. This unique layout demonstrates the level of mathematical and geometric knowledge of inhabitants of Lepenski Vir. The peculiar choice of equilateral triangle as a basis instead of the more common round or rectangular form suggests significance of numbers in the lives of the settlement's inhabitants.

The interior of each house includes a fireplace in form of elongated rectangle placed on the long axis of the floorplan. These fireplaces were built from massive rectangular stone blocks. The fireplaces are further extended with stone block to create some kind of a small shrine in the back of the house. These shrines were always decorated with sculptures carved from massive round river stones and represent perhaps river gods or ancestors. Another significant feature of the houses is a shallow circular depression in the ground placed precisely in the exact middle. This perhaps represents some kind of an altar."

Far more details you can find among archeological community in Serbia. I'm not good at mathematics, so I can't explain. I know though that scientific archeological reports confirmed a knowledge od some mathematical mehods discovered some 8000 years later, more precisely in 18th century AD.

In Wikipedia you can also find that: "It is assumed that the people of Lepenski Vir culture represent the descendants of the early European population of the Brno-Psedmost hunter gatherer culture from the end of the last ice age. Archeological evidence of human habitation surrounding caves dates back to around 20,000 BC. The first settlement on the low plateau dates back to 7000 BC, a time when climate become significantly warmer."

[zagor]

I think Doug and you just call people to discurage them to go to Bosnia.

Oh yeah ... we have that power.

Forchenetly, you don't have that power you would like to have to stop esxavation. Only, what you trying to do is to act as archelogical inquistion police which going from one forum to another giving lectures and talking how esxavation in Bosnia is archeological heresy.
This guy gave the best explanation what one archeologist or one geologyst could expect from the establishment in case that he/she goes to Bosnia

.... And as for my anonymity, excuse me if I’m not in a rush to jeopardize my academic career by appearing to “ally” myself with “maverick” archaeologists. And sadly, that’s precisely what would happen if my identity became known. I’ve decided to choose my battles instead, and this is not the time or the reason to lend myself to ostracism. Which, incidentally, is another reason why “anomalous” evidence is allowed to remain in the crypt-like confines of insignificance.

The hold of archaeological “conservatism” over the academic community is a steely one. If you rock the boat you’re basically guaranteed to get tossed overboard by your irritated colleagues - no matter how respectable your credentials might be at the time.

People outside of this circle might be vaguely aware of this, but that awareness doesn’t come close to conveying just how dangerious it is to dabble in what is now popularly referred to as “fringe” or “pseudo” archaeology. False it is assuredly not, but suicidal - it most definitely is.

Regards to all,
Anonymous

That is similar what the establishment do to the people through out history
For an example of Kopernik & Galileo "fathers of astronomy"

On March 5, 1616 the Sacred Congregation of the Index recognized the scientific value of De Revolutionibus but placed it on the Index Librorum Prohibitorum, that is the list of books forbidden as dangerous to the faith or morals of Catholics. It also decreed that, if the book was to be used, a number of "corrections" must be made.

That you care about proper methodology as a professional and an expert in archeology (as you think about your self and people around you)

~sigh~ when did I say I'm an expert?

Never mind ... I disagree with you and Osmanagic that there was a supercivilization 12,000 years ago that was in contact with the Mesoamericans and the Egyptians (even though there was no civilizations in Mesoamerica or Egypt during this time) and I disagree with Osmanagic that the Maya came from space and went to Atlantis and then to Mexico and then back to space again.

I don't see any form of agriculture that could support such a construction as Osmanagic is claiming and scientific studies (that I quoted here) have proven such such agriculture was not possible 12,000 years ago.



Ta ta ...

I seems to me that you don't want to see many things.

The foolishness of the common assumption, that the Giza plateau pyramids were built and utilized by fourth Dynasty kings as funerary structures, cannot be overstated. It is a matter of archaeological fact that none of the fourth Dynasty kings put their names on the pyramids supposedly constructed in their times, yet from the fifth Dynasty onwards, the other pyramids had hundreds of official inscriptions, leaving us no doubt about which kings built them. The mathematical complexity, engineering requirements, and sheer size of the Giza plateau pyramids represent an enormous, seemingly impossible leap in abilities over the third dynasty buildings. Contemporary Egyptological explanation cannot account for this leap, nor can they account for the clear decline in mathematics, engineering and size of the constructions of the fifth dynasty. Textbooks speak of "religious upheaval" and "civil wars," but there is no evidence whatsoever of these having occurred.....

.....Actually, we have the testament of Pharaoh Khufu himself that he only did repair work on the Great Pyramid. The Inventory Stele, found in 1857 by Auguste Mariette just to the east of the Pyramid, dates to about 1500 B.C., but according to Maspero and other experts, shows evidence of having been copied from a far older stele contemporaneous with the Fourth Dynasty. In the Stele, Khufu himself tells of his discoveries made while clearing away the sands from the Pyramid and Sphinx. He dedicated the account to Isis, who he called the "Mistress of the Western Mountain," "Mistress of the Pyramid," and identified the Pyramid itself as the "House of Isis."....

...In 1983 and 1984, prehistorian Robert J. Wenke from the University of Washington, and president of the American Research Center in Egypt, was given permission to collect mortar samples from various ancient construction sites, including the Great Pyramid and the Sphinx Temple. The mortar contained particles of charcoal, insect matter, pollen, and other organic materials which could be subjected for carbon-14 dating analysis. Using two different radiocarbon dating laboratories—the Institute for the Study of Man at Southern Methodist University, and the Institute of Medium Energy Physics in Zurich—the samples revealed a number of curiosities. For the Great Pyramid samples, the tests performed at the two labs initially gave very different clusterings of dates, off by several thousands of years. When certain "adjustments" in the data were applied, the resulting time frame narrowed to 3100 B.C. to 2850 B.C.—which is still 400 years earlier than when most Egyptologists believe the Great Pyramid was built. Even more anomalous, the dates obtained from mortar used near the top of the Pyramid were a thousand years older than those obtained from mortar nearer the Pyramid base. The researchers, if they were to fully believe these findings, would have to propose that the Pyramid had somehow been built from the top down.

...The unsolved problem of how the 2,300,000 very heavy blocks were transported to the building site of the pyramid is even more mystifying. How were the blocks taken to the nearly 500- foot height of the pyramid’s summit? A Danish civil engineer, P. Garde-Hanson, has calculated that a ramp built all the way to the top of the pyramid would require 17.5 million cubic meters of material, this representing more than seven times the amount of material used for the pyramid itself, and a work force of 240,000 to build it in the time allotted by Cheops' reign. But if this enormous ramp were built, it would then require a force of more than 300,000 laborers as much as eight years to dismantle. Where would all the ramp material have been placed, since it is not to be found anywhere near the Great Pyramid? And what of maneuvering the precisely carved blocks into place without damaging the corners? Various lifting devices and levers have been proposed by modern engineers (remember, no existing dynastic records, paintings, or friezes give any clue to this mystery), but none solve the problem of how the 50-ton blocks of the main chamber were lifted and positioned using an area where only four to six workers could stand, when the strength of at least 2000 would be needed.

In other word what, as you said, your a few brain cells can't comprehend should be put away under carpet as archaeological conservatism is doing all time.

Im not sure who will on the end to play this

Ta ta ta ...