Giza

[Minimalist]

Completely possible and even likely but I did not establish the 17-23 year parameter for building the thing, depending on whose guesstimate you want to use.

If it was a "tomb and tomb-only" it seems pretty unlikely that they would have started before Khufu came to the throne....and the prep work would have been included.

[Katherine Reece]

Another page you should view is this one at catchpenny:

http://www.catchpenny.org/movebig.html

There are some nice images there drawn by ancient people showing how they moved massive stones.

[Katherine Reece]

If it was a "tomb and tomb-only" it seems pretty unlikely that they would have started before Khufu came to the throne....and the prep work would have been included.

Tomb and tomb only is a bit incorrect.... it was a tomb certainly .. there are accounts of ancient tomb robbers who were caught robbing pyramids who admited to burning the bodies of the King they found entombed there to more easily get at the jewels wrapped within.

But it was more than a tomb ... it was the center of the cult of the Pharoah, each pyramid had its own farms and workshops and worship areas and sets of priests.

I didn't mean to suggest that they started before the King came to the throne ... but that they got a head start on quarrying and the gathering of resources while doing the work of ground preparation.

And please do consider that ramps have been found in place at pyramid sites. I'd be happy to quote from the reference I have for this if anyone is interested.

[Minimalist]

You are missing the point, Kath.

Of course they used ramps or a ramp, how else could they get the damn things up to the next level without cranes or helicopters?

But the idea that the thing was built using those methods in 20 years is absurd.


BTW, the ramp would have been a bigger construction than the pyramid.

[Katherine Reece]

You are missing the point, Kath.

If you need to shorten my name (and I understand it is long) please use Kat.

But the idea that the thing was built using those methods in 20 years is absurd.

Why? Snefru built as least three... some say four .. in his time as King. The King had all the resources of the Egyptian civilization to pull on... a massive labor force that were unemployed for the most part during the season when the Nile flooded the land.

BTW, the ramp would have been a bigger construction than the pyramid.

There are ramps in place at pyramid sites.

[stan]

Minimalist wrote:

Of course they used ramps or a ramp, how else could they get the damn things up to the next level without cranes or helicopters?

BTW, the ramp would have been a bigger construction than the pyramid.

Minimalist, do you think that both these statements could be true?
If I am not mistaken, you have been arguing against ramps for a long time.
So I was surprised to see you say "of course they used ramps."

And you have said before that the ramp would be larger than the pyramid. I thought you were implying that that such a thing was impossible. ARe you contradicting yourself? (Hey..it's ok if you are...just asking)

Maybe where you are going with this is back to the "mystery" thing.
You kind of mystify me sometimes because you are very objective and fact-oriented when talking about something like the Romans, but with stuff like this, you appear to want to dismiss possible concrete suggestions.

You know more about this than me, for sure...and since none of us really know exactly how they did it, I suppose you could still say its a mystery. But collectively we know a lot about different techniques available to the Egyptians, so it's not ENTIRELY a mystery. And if and when we finally figure it out, I daresay it won't be anything strange or weird. It'll be great, though!

Cheers, Stan

[Minimalist]

Sneferu's pyramids are not only smaller...they are built with smaller stones judging from the photos posted here, Kat ( we aim to please.)

Again, I don't doubt that ramps were used......I'm not joining the "Aliens Built Them Club".....yet.


But there is something wrong with this equation:


Dolorite hammers+sleds+ropes+copper tools+ramps+manpower x 20 years = 6 million tons of stone piled 450 feet high.

Either the technology attributed is wrong or the time allowed is wrong because the result is still pretty much there to be seen.

[Katherine Reece]

The following information comes from:
The Complete Pyramids
Page 217
Mark Lehner


A few pyramid ramps have been discovered in situ, so most discussion on the subject is hypothetical. Ramps have been found at small, 3rd-dynasty pyramids. For example, a surviving ramp makes a perpendicular approach over the enclosure wall from quarries to the west of Sekhemkhet’s pyramid at Saqqara, abandoned very early in construction. And at Sinki, South Abydos, Gunter Dreyer and Nabil Swelim discovered a frozen moment in the construction of a tiny pyramid with ramps still in place, perpendicular to its sides over the lower steps. And, as we have seen, evidence of the roadbeds that ran along the top of embankments and ramps survives at the sites of later pyramids, such as that of Senwosret I at Lisht.

At Meidum there is what appears to be a hauling track or possibly the remains of a ramp approaching from the southwest. This trackway seems to lead directly over the satellite pyramid and, if projected, reaches the higher courses of the pyramid’s western side. Another so-called ramp approaches from the east, though this is more likely an earlier causeway than a construction ramp. However, it does align with a recess in the face of the fifth and sixth steps of the second step pyramid, E2, which led Borchardt to reconstruct it as a very thin and startlingly high straight-on or sloping ramp up to the pyramid face at that point.

At the North Pyramid of Dahshur remains of two transport roads approach from southwesterly quarries. Composed of compact chips and marly sand, they come in very close to the pyramid, implying that the core stone was hauled right up to its base – and so lending support to the theory that the ramp clung to the pyramid. Two other tracks composed of white limestone chips approach from the east, marking the delivery, perhaps, of the casing stones.

East of Khufu’s pyramid and south of the queen’s pyramids and the mastabas in the Easter Field, archaeologist from Cairo University excavated two parallel walls, formed, like so many other secondary walls at Giza, of small broken stone set in tafla clay. One of the walls is thicker and made of segments c. 10 cubits (5.25 m or 17 ft 3 in) long. Because the excavators cleared the debris between them they now describe a corridor, but we suspect that they were retaining walls – the debris fill being the body of a ramp or construction embankment. Similar structures have been found, for example and embankment which still leans against the incomplete southern wall of the mastaba field to the west of Khufu’s pyramid. And George Reisner found construction embankments filling an unfinished room in Menkaure’s mortuary temple.

Much of pyramid construction, including ramps and embankments, was simply the engineering of huge amounts of limestone chip, tafla and gypsum. One advantage of this material was that once structures were no longer needed, it easily disintegrated into its constituent parts when struck with a pick.

[Katherine Reece]

Either the technology attributed is wrong or the time allowed is wrong because the result is still pretty much there to be seen.

Actually the firm date of 20 years is a bit old. Many Egyptologists believe that Khufu was King longer than was previously thought. Lehner gives a possible 30-32 years for Khufu's reign and thus the longest possible time of pyramid construction.

Even though Snefru's pyramid's were smaller in total mass he out did his son.

[Katherine Reece]

Dolorite hammers+sleds+ropes+copper tools+ramps+manpower x 20 years = 6 million tons of stone piled 450 feet high.

This article at my website might help you:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?n ... cle&sid=58
Ancient Egyptian Copper Slabbing Saws

[Minimalist]

Minimalist wrote:

Of course they used ramps or a ramp, how else could they get the damn things up to the next level without cranes or helicopters?

BTW, the ramp would have been a bigger construction than the pyramid.

Minimalist, do you think that both these statements could be true?
If I am not mistaken, you have been arguing against ramps for a long time.
So I was surprised to see you say "of course they used ramps."

And you have said before that the ramp would be larger than the pyramid. I thought you were implying that that such a thing was impossible. ARe you contradicting yourself? (Hey..it's ok if you are...just asking)

Maybe where you are going with this is back to the "mystery" thing.
You kind of mystify me sometimes because you are very objective and fact-oriented when talking about something like the Romans, but with stuff like this, you appear to want to dismiss possible concrete suggestions.

You know more about this than me, for sure...and since none of us really know exactly how they did it, I suppose you could still say its a mystery. But collectively we know a lot about different techniques available to the Egyptians, so it's not ENTIRELY a mystery. And if and when we finally figure it out, I daresay it won't be anything strange or weird. It'll be great, though!

Cheers, Stan

Stan, there are remains of ramps scattered about but I recall reading some guy who estimated that building a ramp nearly 5,000 feet long and 450 feet high would require about 3 times as much building material as the pyramid itself. That would be about 18 million tons that then had to be removed otherwise your pyramid looks like shit.

I don't think they built it in 20 years using a ramp....and I would love to see the Ramp People conduct a demonstration. I suspect that if you got a couple of long ropes and enough people pulling on them that you could drag an average stone (2.5 tons) of the pyramid up a ramp with a 10 degree slope. But, I don't think it would be easy and I doubt they could maintain the 1 stone every four minute pace that THEY require to get the thing done in 20 years.


BTW, building a type of ramp around the outside of the pyramid does not answer the question of A) how did they get the stones around the corners and B) has the effect of making the ramp even longer....even if it were technically possible to build a stable ramp on the side of the structure.


As I said above, however, the damn thing IS there. And unless one wants to join the Alien Club then what alternative is there to the ramp theory.

But not in 20 years.

[Minimalist]

Lehner gives a possible 30-32 years for Khufu's reign and thus the longest possible time of pyramid construction.

But they didn't know that when they started. And is Lehner suggesting that as soon as ole Khufu dropped dead the laws of time, space and physics suddenly stopped functioning so that they could finish the thing and bury Khufu's old ass in the required 70 days?

That seems more outlandish than Aliens with Helicopters.

[stan]

Thanks for the reply, Bob.
I too am mystified. I just read the quote on the Bosnian Pyramid thread
about the ramp building statistics--quite a coincidence!...and of course I have not answer.
Contraditions abound.
Maybe the key is that the 20 year figure is too small, as you say.

Katherine seems to suggest that there were other reasons for building the
Great Pyramid besides as a tomb...so the lifespan of the supposed honoree might not be relevant.

By the way, does anyone know if elephants were used to pull any ancient stones? I suppose they were in Asia, where the local elephants are more docile than the African variety.

[Minimalist]

Actually the firm date of 20 years is a bit old

The last documentary I saw used the figure of 17 years....and Zahi Hawass suggested a crew of only 10,000 men....obviously with replacements added to make up for the ones who dropped dead.

[Katherine Reece]

This quote is from
The Complete Pyramids
Mark Lehner
Page 224-225


Let us assume that the stone haulers could move 1 km (0.62 miles) per hour en route from the quarry to the pyramid. The return journey was done with an empty sledge and so was much faster. The distance from Khufu’s quarry to the pyramid, a c. 6° slope could probably therefore be covered in 19minutes by 20 men pulling a 2.5 ton block. Certainly, this was well within the capacities of the NOVA team. (Kat note: this refers to the NOVA show This Old Pyramid where Mark Lehner tested different methods of ramp construction and block hauling.)

The French Egyptologist Henri Chevrier, experimenting with moving large stones during his work at the Karnak temple, found that 3 men could pull a 1 ton block (1/3 ton each) over a track lubricated with water to eliminate friction. Research into European megaliths has shown that one man can pull even more, as much as ½ ton. And during the building of the NOVA pyramid we found that 10-12 men could easily pull a 2 ton block mounted on a sledge up an inclined roadway. Further insights are provided by the famous scene from the tomb of Djehutihotep which depicts the moving of a large colossus over a lubricated surface. That statue would have weighed c 58 tons, given the scale and size indicated by the tomb scene and assuming it was alabaster – it was probably being pulled from the alabaster quarries near Hatnub. There are 172 men shown, each therefore pull c ½ ton. Modern trials confirm that this is possible on a fairly friction-free surface.

By the same ratio (½ ton per hauler) a 2.5 ton block on a lubricated, level surface could be pulled by 7.5 men. If we assume that a division (20 men) moved 10 stones per day – allowing one hour to move the stone to the pyramid and return with an empty sledge – then 240 stones could be moved daily from quarry to pyramid by 34 divisions. There are points to note on both sides of this equation. More divisions could work simultaneously at the lower levels, when there may have been many ramps, and therefore a higher hauling rate. Far fewer could work nearer the top, where there was less space and ramp gradients were steeper. Also, the stones of Khufu’s pyramid are not all 2.5 tons- this estimate of the average block size is frequently quoted but needs more study. Many stones, particularly near the apex, are smaller, while those of the core are by no means all neat, 2.5 ton cubes and near the base blocks exceed 2.5 tons.

Perhaps one hour per stone is too demanding a rate. If we halved it, so that each division moved only 5 stones per day, 68 divisions would then be needed to lay 340 stones per day. At 20 men to a division that gives us a perhaps more realistic estimate of 1,360 stone haulers. The point is that it still seems eminently practicable.