Giza

[Katherine Reece]

I believe the theory is that the barge would be put in place and sunk using rocks to a certain point then the obselik slid on and the rocks removed to float the barge.

Modern Russians moved the massive rock for the base of the Peter the Great statue using this type of method.

[Tech]

Kat ,
I read the links you posted and the methods etc seem plausible but....

I worked for years in the coatbridge industrial museum from its very start collecting exhibits and restoring them etc...
One of them was the steam engines from cardowan colliery that lifted and lowered the cages , a massive engine .
We had to move 12-15 ton steel mountings (basically a block) that the shafts fit into and we used rollers and a device called a Tirfer which basically emulates your men on a rope (we did move heavier but this is just an example) and Though I agree the stones could be moved this way after all my experience with moving and setting these mountings I can state for a FACT there is no way on earth you are doing one every 4 minutes, also we had a few accidents even with all our saftey procedures which slowed us down , I cant imagine that egyptians had a health and saftey inspector on site . It may have been done as stated but I'll never believe that timeline . I also believe the reason nobody has got a team together to physicaly test thier theories is that they know from the start it will fail.

[alrom]

Hm, I damn I have lots of work to do but my mind keeps drifting to pyramid blocks and egyptian guys carrying them up and down pyramids!

Aren't most blocks at Giza around 2.5 tons? is that metric or short tons? anyway, cars weight around 1500 kg or 3000 lbs more or less, which is more than half one of those blocks, and we know that cars can be moved and toppled quite easily by crowds, without any kind of tool, as we can see in riots and stuff like that . I think that with experience, a rather good technique, tools and sheer human power they could have done it, maybe even in 20 years.

But I don't know exactly how.

[Katherine Reece]

Though I agree the stones could be moved this way after all my experience with moving and setting these mountings I can state for a FACT there is no way on earth you are doing one every 4 minutes

You need to think of an assembly line with this ... as I said before Ford produced a Model A every 49 seconds using the assembly line process. Not knowing how he did it people's minds would boggle and say it was impossible.

And don't forget ... that's an *averaged* time based on 20 years ... some Egyptologists now believe that Khufu reigned 30-32 years and that would extend the time for building.

I cant imagine that egyptians had a health and saftey inspector on site

No and they didn't have lawyers to sue the Pharaoh either.

I also believe the reason nobody has got a team together to physicaly test thier theories is that they know from the start it will fail.

These theories have been tested ... I've posted several long passages where the archaeologists tested these ideas.

[alrom]

Kat ,
I read the links you posted and the methods etc seem plausible but....

I worked for years in the coatbridge industrial museum from its very start collecting exhibits and restoring them etc...
One of them was the steam engines from cardowan colliery that lifted and lowered the cages , a massive engine .
We had to move 12-15 ton steel mountings (basically a block) that the shafts fit into and we used rollers and a device called a Tirfer which basically emulates your men on a rope (we did move heavier but this is just an example) and Though I agree the stones could be moved this way after all my experience with moving and setting these mountings I can state for a FACT there is no way on earth you are doing one every 4 minutes, also we had a few accidents even with all our saftey procedures which slowed us down , I cant imagine that egyptians had a health and saftey inspector on site . It may have been done as stated but I'll never believe that timeline . I also believe the reason nobody has got a team together to physicaly test thier theories is that they know from the start it will fail.

But maybe if you had worked for years moving blocks, and your father before you, and your father's father before him etc, you wouldn't have so many problems, in fact you would probably do it quickly.

What I mean is that the egyptians had extensive experience on that kind of work, and they had thousands of people doing that particular job so it's probable that good methods and techniques were invented and were also quickly adopted by everyone.

But I'm just theorizing, so... who knows.

[Katherine Reece]

But maybe if you had worked for years moving blocks, and your father before you, and your father's father before him etc, you wouldn't have so many problems, in fact you would probably do it quickly.

What I mean is that the egyptians had extensive experience on that kind of work, and they had thousands of people doing that particular job so it's probable that good methods and techniques were invented and were also quickly adopted by everyone.

But I'm just theorizing, so... who knows.

No .. you're right ... the Egyptians had hundreds of years of experience in moving heavy stone before the GP was built. Before the GP they built Djoser's Step Pyramid, they began Sekhemkhet's pyramid but he only reigned six years and so they left it as a truncated pyramid, Khaba's "layer" pyramid, Huni's pyramid at Meydum, and then the three pyramids of Sneferu. That doesn't include any other building they did .... they had PLENTY of experience and practice.

[Minimalist]

This guy seems to disagree with you.

http://www.crystalinks.com/steppyr.html

The first tombs of the pharaohs were large, unimpressive, bunker affairs called mastabas. They were made from sun dried mud brick and most have long since crumbled to dust. This all changed around 2630 BC with the erection of the step pyramid. It was made for the pharaoh, Djoser and began as a normal mastaba, but was subsequently enlarged by adding one mastaba on top of another until it consisted of six terraces some 200ft (60 meters) high. The surface was originally encased in smooth white limestone which must have caught the sun light and reflected its rays.

During an excavation in 1924-26, a pedestal of a statue of Djoser (Zoser) was found. This complex represents the first major work in stone. That is, unless there are other works that have yet to be found.

As an aside the stones in the Step Pyramid seem tiny by comparison to the GP...although consistent with Sneferu's efforts.

[Katherine Reece]

This guy seems to disagree with you.

Please elaborate how what Bakeman has on that page disagrees with me.

Everyone knows that Djoser's step pyramid is a mastaba built atop a mastaba ... but surely you aren't suggesting that Djoser's pyramid is mudbrick are you?

[stan]

One wonders how they moved a sunken barge loaded with heavy stones?

Be nice, Bob!

LOL

THey loaded the barge enough to push it down to the water line, not to sink it!

Did you read the page from catchpenny?

[Katherine Reece]

This quote is from The Complete Pyramids
by Mark Lehner
Page 104

"Rainer Stadelmann has been working at North Dahshur for over a decade. In the course of his excavations of the debris at the base of the pyramid he found hundreds of pieces of the fine limestone casing. Many of these have graffiti inscribed on their rear faces by the work gangs. One from a corner bears the hieratic (shorthand hieroglyphic) inscription mentioning “bringing to earth year 15.”. This refers to counting year 15, which, if biennial, is equivalent to the 30th year of Sneferu’s reign. Some 30 courses higher Stadelmann was able to place a casing stone dated only four years later- this gives us a very clear picture of the length of time it took to build pyramids.”

[Katherine Reece]

I believe Minimalist is arguing that since the Step Pyramid is the first *major* work in stone that the AE didn’t move stone before the Step Pyramid.

Here is just one example to show that is wrong.

Again TCP, page 80 discussing 1st Dynasty mastabas.

“It is in the very core of the mastabas that features develop which appear to be compelling precedents for the later pyramids. In mastaba 2185 we see for the first time great stone beams over the burial chamber. Mastabas 3036 and 3035, belonging to the officials Ankhka and Hemaka, have a stepped entrance corridor built into a sloping trench that approaches the burial chamber from the east. The corridors feature the first portcullis grooves and slabs, the sliding stone door that would be used in pyramid passages throughout the Old Kingdom.”

[Katherine Reece]

My brain's tired ... we also can't forget Nabta Playa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa

[Minimalist]

This all changed around 2630 BC with the erection of the step pyramid.

Assuming that is correct....it would not be hundreds and hundreds of years to the GP...and again, the Step Pyramid (as well as Sneferu's work, seem to be built of much more manageable sized stones.

[Minimalist]

Modern Russians moved the massive rock for the base of the Peter the Great statue using this type of method.

I'll bet that even 'modern' Russians had access to block and tackle.

[Minimalist]

as I said before Ford produced a Model A every 49 seconds using the assembly line process

Are you suggesting that the Egyptians used a multiple conveyor belt system to move the blocks? Because that was the secret of Henry Ford.

By 1914, the assembly process for the Model T had been so streamlined it took only 93 minutes to assemble a car.

Let's see, if they placed one block every 93 minutes they'd finish......next year.