Bosnian pyramids, Part II, no photos please!

[stellarchaser]

I would like to add my two cents about the Vinca script. First, let me say right off that I am no formally ecucated expert on ancient scripts. That said ancient scripts have been of great intrest to me for much of my life and so, in spite of my lack of university training on the subject, I feel I might be able to add something of worth here.

It is my understanding that that the current consensus regarding the Vinca characters is that they represent a form of proto-script...not quite a written language but meaningful and more advanced than mere decorations to be sure. To the best of my knowledge only short groupings of the characters have been found, no long texts, making translation as such extremely difficult. The writing of the Indus civilization shows similar short character groupings and similar translation difficulties. It is speculated that the Vinca script is actually more akin to proto-Egyptian (not linguistically) writing in that regard...more likely a system of symbols designating such information as container content and personal identification markers than to an actual fully formed writing system capable of recording the spoken language of its users.

Certainly the Vinca symbols are very interesting and a very early example of humanity's march towards literacy but the claim that they represent the worlds earliest writing system, at this time, is not proven or accepted by the majority of scholars. I would love to discuss the Vinca characters (and all other ancient writing systems) further, but maybe that is the topic for another thread? This thread is a little top heavy already...

BY mentioning Vinca script, I just wanted to say that balkans area had rich and colorfoul prehistory. You also perhaps have heard for clay tabplets from Rumania with script simmilar to pictographic sumerian, only 2.500 years older that sumerian.

Even if it's proto-script I think it signifficant, having in mind period we are talking about. But you are maybe right that it is for some other thread.

I mentioned it because some people here don't have enough information about balkans prehistory.

[Katherine Reece]

I did a bit of looking at the Vinca script when I was researching what I could on the history of the area (back when all this started). The Vinca are extremely interesting and I think the script is very promising.

My problem is that I can't find much published research in English. I've combed through all the academic databases I have access to and got what books I can find through interlibrary loans.

If anyone can suggest some English language books on this topic I'd be very grateful.

[ReneDescartes]

STellerchaser if you have noticed that Gallou spent days working at the spot of the walls depicted on oneof the photos,is there reason enough for the assumption that you are at the spot too ?Another question which I am almost certain you can answer .Are the stones of the recangular structure laid out horzontaly,vertically or tilted ?The way they are shown allows no deductions at all .If they are laid out horizontaly the most logical explanation would be that they are forming the remnantsof a small construction like a shed .
Asfor the vinca-script I agree it is probably some kind of proto-script .
I just have a little problem with some people making exagerating claims concerning the past of their glorious country .Is it my imagination or is there an understream of hurt nationalistic feelings underlying the debate of the pyramids ?I just visited another site related to the pyramids to be confronted with Nicola Tezla .I still don(t understand the need to bring his presence into that other site other than that he was born in Croatia .
Passions seem to flare that have nothing to do with the debate .
I am well placed to measure the consequences of this tendency as I live in a small country where a minority of people of two different language groups busy themselves with this kind of occupation .
But back to the first two questions and forgive my digression .

[stellarchaser]

STellerchaser if you have noticed that Gallou spent days working at the spot of the walls depicted on oneof the photos,is there reason enough for the assumption that you are at the spot too ?Another question which I am almost certain you can answer .Are the stones of the recangular structure laid out horzontaly,vertically or tilted ?The way they are shown allows no deductions at all .If they are laid out horizontaly the most logical explanation would be that they are forming the remnantsof a small construction like a shed .
Asfor the vinca-script I agree it is probably some kind of proto-script .
I just have a little problem with some people making exagerating claims concerning the past of their glorious country .Is it my imagination or is there an understream of hurt nationalistic feelings underlying the debate of the pyramids ?I just visited another site related to the pyramids to be confronted with Nicola Tezla .I still don(t understand the need to bring his presence into that other site other than that he was born in Croatia .
Passions seem to flare that have nothing to do with the debate .
I am well placed to measure the consequences of this tendency as I live in a small country where a minority of people of two different language groups busy themselves with this kind of occupation .
But back to the first two questions and forgive my digression .

STellerchaser if you have noticed that Gallou spent days working at the spot of the walls depicted on oneof the photos,is there reason enough for the assumption that you are at the spot too ?

Fow gawd's sake Rene, you're fifth person here asking me am I in Visoko and do I work for foundation...I"M NOT there and I DON't work there and never worked.
As for Nancy Gallou. go to foundation website and you'll see at least 10 photos with young cute black haired girl in that hole.

Another question which I am almost certain you can answer .Are the stones of the recangular structure laid out horzontaly,vertically or tilted ?

I can't answer that question, because I'm seeing same pictures as you. I presume it's horizontaly. But it's too small for shed, I think. It is strange feature.

I just have a little problem with some people making exagerating claims concerning the past of their glorious country .Is it my imagination or is there an understream of hurt nationalistic feelings underlying the debate of the pyramids ?


Vinca script isn't definitely about my country's glorius past. It's found in Serbia (east of Bosnia), but later on, script is also found in Rumania and wider area of south-east and east Europe. I mentioned it to inform people about balkans prehistory.

Some archeologists think that Bosnian Butmir culture is later phase of Vinca culture, but no Vinca script has been found in Bosnia so far. So it has nothing with nationalism.

By the way, we bosnians suffered lots of nationalism, and I hate it. From Roman times, countless nations passed through Balkans (some partially stayed here, as Celts, we still have some celtic toponyms, I think), and nationalism is absurdity.
Some of my country men (and I unfortunatelly) sometimes reacted here in bad way because at first we couldn't understand why some people wanted to stop excavations. We need experts help here, and not banning of excavations from outside. It's not nationalism, we were just little bit hurt and suprised.

I just visited another site related to the pyramids to be confronted with Nicola Tezla .I still don(t understand the need to bring his presence into that other site other than that he was born in Croatia .
Passions seem to flare that have nothing to do with the debate

Tesla was great scientist, and don't know why people misusing his name. He was above nationalism.

[alrom]

By the way, we bosnians suffered lots of nationalism, and I hate it. From Roman times, countless nations passed through Balkans (some partially stayed here, as Celts, we still have some celtic toponyms, I think), and nationalism is absurdity.
Some of my country men (and I unfortunatelly) sometimes reacted here in bad way because at first we couldn't understand why some people wanted to stop excavations. We need experts help here, and not banning of excavations from outside. It's not nationalism, we were just little bit hurt and suprised.

I just visited another site related to the pyramids to be confronted with Nicola Tezla .I still don(t understand the need to bring his presence into that other site other than that he was born in Croatia .
Passions seem to flare that have nothing to do with the debate

Tesla was great scientist, and don't know why people misusing his name. He was above nationalism.

Hey that's nice to hear... rabid nationalism usually loses its meaning when confronted with well-studied history. I live in northern spain, and through the ages it this place has been settled by:

-iberians
-phoenicians
-greeks
-carthaginians (well in fact they had colonies in southern spain)
-romans
-vandals
-visigoths
-moors (and berbers)
-franks
-and a very important jewish population

So talking about a pure monolithic nation etc. is really dumb.

But yeah, it's possible that they'll find something of interest there, and I agree with you that this dig should be directed by a good archaeology team doing professional work.

[stellarchaser]

By the way, we bosnians suffered lots of nationalism, and I hate it. From Roman times, countless nations passed through Balkans (some partially stayed here, as Celts, we still have some celtic toponyms, I think), and nationalism is absurdity.
Some of my country men (and I unfortunatelly) sometimes reacted here in bad way because at first we couldn't understand why some people wanted to stop excavations. We need experts help here, and not banning of excavations from outside. It's not nationalism, we were just little bit hurt and suprised.

I just visited another site related to the pyramids to be confronted with Nicola Tezla .I still don(t understand the need to bring his presence into that other site other than that he was born in Croatia .
Passions seem to flare that have nothing to do with the debate

Tesla was great scientist, and don't know why people misusing his name. He was above nationalism.

Hey that's nice to hear... rabid nationalism usually loses its meaning when confronted with well-studied history. I live in northern spain, and through the ages it this place has been settled by:

-iberians
-phoenicians
-greeks
-carthaginians (well in fact they had colonies in southern spain)
-romans
-vandals
-visigoths
-moors (and berbers)
-franks
-and a very important jewish population

So talking about a pure monolithic nation etc. is really dumb.

But yeah, it's possible that they'll find something of interest there, and I agree with you that this dig should be directed by a good archaeology team doing professional work.

Through my country passed so many nations, that I don't want to make a list, because this thread would be thick as telephone book.

[Minimalist]

Perhaps this,





was a Vincan Campaign Button.

"Vote for Og"

[ReneDescartes]

Thanks stellarchaser for your clarification.Me too I live in a country where celts,romans,francs,french,spanish,austrians,dutch,germans left their footprints and sprobably their genes too.So much for nationalism.
I'd like to contribute to decypher the campaign button too.Looking at the lower right part I see a foldable table with three bottles of wine on it .Perhaps it was a sign along a neolithic track showing to a picnic area ,similar to the present signs along the highways .THe bow and arrow points on the lower left could then direct to the local sporting facilities .Bow and arrow sporting grounds still exist in allmost every village in my neighbourhood .I will have another go at the rest of the symbols after finishing my beer .It helps to feed the imagination

[stellarchaser]

I did a bit of looking at the Vinca script when I was researching what I could on the history of the area (back when all this started). The Vinca are extremely interesting and I think the script is very promising.

My problem is that I can't find much published research in English. I've combed through all the academic databases I have access to and got what books I can find through interlibrary loans.

If anyone can suggest some English language books on this topic I'd be very grateful.

Hello Katherine,

I just stumpled on some archeology convention on the net where they discuss ancient european scripts, including Vinca-Danube script. It not a book, but it might be interesting for you:

http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/seminars/a11.html

Also I have found a large PDF file from american proffesor Griffin at:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8610/index.html

but I don't know nothing about him.

[stellarchaser]

There is also very nice illustrated page (in english) about Vinca culture on this page:

http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/vi ... a_eng.html

The reason why I mentioned Vinca Culture on this thread, is not its script only. many schollars consider that Bosnian Butmir Culture (near Sarajevo) in only younger phase of Vinca culture. And Butmir Culture is only 20 miles from Visochica Hill.

Same as Vinca, Butmir was one of the largest ceramics production "factories" in Europe of that time. Through trade, Vinca's and Butmir's products reached distant parts of Europe.

No Vinca script is found do far in Bosnia, but we have to know that Bosnia is unresearched country archeologically. Bosnia was 500 years under Turkish rule. First archeological excavations began during short-lived Austrian rule, which resulted with discovering of Butmir culture. Former Yugoslavia was investing lot of money into excavations, but for such rich history, you never have enough money to excavate everything.

And that's why we see present excavations on Visochica as a step forward, in further exploring of our country.

[FaraonVisoko]

http://piramide.jahu.net/piramide.php/2006/06/29

It's late in Bosnia I know, but can anyone translate what it says under the top picture on this page?

It's a new pic and it looks like it could be a corner.

I wish that website was available in English.

it writes: the top of the piramide off Sun, more photos in the section photo:


http://piramide.jahu.net/slike-piramida/

translation by google

[stellarchaser]

dear friends,

very often Foundation that is excavating alleged bosnian pyramids publicly was accused for lying.

Other, accusing side was always "right". But things are not that simple. On Archaeology Magazine Mr. Mark Rose is having his column dedicated to Osmanagich's Foundation. So there we can read:

"Meanwhile, Canadian archaeologist Chris Mundigler, whose name had been mentioned as a foreign expert scheduled to work on the "pyramid" excavation, has written to ARCHAEOLOGY, saying that he does not endorse and never agreed to work on the project."

whole text link:

http://www.archaeology.org/online/featu ... pdate.html

Of course, that should add another international shame on Foundation, and Osmanagich himself.

But truth is bit different. Foundation published Mr. Mundiger's e-mail to Osmanagich, where he's asking a job with the Foundation. The e-mail is on Foundation website, and I'm copying it here:

Original Message

From: InCA Research Services

To: osmanagic@msn.com

Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 2:11 PM

Subject: Employment enquiry



December 30, 2005

Mr. Osmanagich,

I am writing to enquire as to the possibility of full-time / part-time
salaried, and/or contractual work you may have in your organization for
either archaeological research and/or GIS / mapping - both in-office and in
the field.
Ideally, I would very much like to work for you from my home office in
Canada on such matters as GIS; research and publication graphics, mapping
and illustration; data analysis and interpretation; technical and report
writing; and the like - all of which I have done for other companies via
long-distance. Other than that, I would consider working wherever you may
have an opening that you feel might suit my qualifications and experience.


As way of a brief introduction, I have accumulated more than 20 years of
experience in archaeological research in southern Europe (Greece and Italy),
the Middle East (Jordan and Syria), North Africa (Morocco) and North America
(Canada), and have had the privilege of teaching at university for 11 years
now in the subjects of archaeology; anthropology; ancient history,
technology and religions.

The specialties I offer include illustration and drafting (plans, sections,
artifact reconstruction); photographic, photogrammetric and media services;
survey and planning; archaeological field services; administration,
logistics and project management; CAD, GIS, and terrain modelling; GPS
planning and surveying; writing and publication services. I am especially
interested in doing mapping, illustration, CAD, GIS and analysis work for
you on your projects from my home-base on the west coast of Canada.

I would like the opportunity of sending you my Curriculum Vita for your
further perusal and welcome any questions or comments you may have.

Thank you in advance for your consideration,

Chris Mundigler

So obviously, it was Mundigler who first contacted Osmanagich, and when he couln't get full salary, he allegedly writes to Archaeology Magazine, washing his hands and portraiting Osmanagich as a lier.

Looks like cold war here...and it looks very sad that Mr.Rose is misusing it publicly.

sad...sad...sad

I wonder, how low can he go?

[Frank Harrist]

I don't know that it is, but that letter could be a forgery. It could also be legit and if so he didn't want to work for free so he should have just said so in the interview. That, however is not good PR.

[stellarchaser]

time cures everything, and it's best judge in the world. When all this is finished one day, time will tell who was who in this story.

And each actor's name will get his place in history books. Accordingly.

[FreeThinker]

And each actor's name will get his place in history books. Accordingly.

Let history record that when I found out about Osmanagich's rantings about Atlantis and his contention that the Bosnian "pyramid" was 12,000 years old I became a skeptic.