Minimalist wrote:
by this time, Stonehenge was 300 years old and the Great Pyramid was 250 years old, even if you accept the time line put forward by The Club. So, its hard to reconcile a post-apocalyptic society building anything before the apocalypse.
Minimalist wrote:
by this time, Stonehenge was 300 years old and the Great Pyramid was 250 years old, even if you accept the time line put forward by The Club. So, its hard to reconcile a post-apocalyptic society building anything before the apocalypse.
I tend to agree with you on these points Min. It seems society was well in to a state of advancement when a series of disasters struck 2200-1500bce. I'll have to see if a can come up with a Tower of Babel theory.
As Charlie mentioned earlier, the 10000-9000bce era was also marked by major changes in climate, geology, and distribution of human activities.
Something about Peleg would be interesting to discuss, occuring not long after the hypothesized Tower of Babel dispersion.
22 The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram.
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23 And the children of Aram; Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash.
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24 And Arphaxad begat Salah; and Salah begat Eber.
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25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan.
Minimalist wrote:Ignores the reality that the exiled hebrews were sitting around in Babylon being exposed to Babylonian mythology on a daily basis. There was no equal development between the two. The Hebrews copied the story, edited it to fit their needs and incorporated it into their text. It is as clear an example of syncretism as one can expect to find.
This has been claimed by you and Marduk many times without a shred of corroborating evidence. It is pure speculation. It is just as tenable and in fact easier to believe that two witnesses to the same event passed down the stories in their own ways.
Minimalist wrote:Ignores the reality that the exiled hebrews were sitting around in Babylon being exposed to Babylonian mythology on a daily basis. There was no equal development between the two. The Hebrews copied the story, edited it to fit their needs and incorporated it into their text. It is as clear an example of syncretism as one can expect to find.
This has been claimed by you and Marduk many times without a shred of corroborating evidence. It is pure speculation. It is just as tenable and in fact easier to believe that two witnesses to the same event passed down the stories in their own ways.
Especially, according to the text, Abraham lived in Mesopotamia prior to his migration to Canaan. According to the text, all mankind was concentrated in modern day Iraq, so it's plausible to assume two or more witnesses, dispersed, were giving their account of those days.
Er Monk. I'm sitting here with my eys shut and trying to make some sense of your earlier post. It says that impact latitude is stable, how come?
Taking the author's example of Shoemaker-Levy for a series of impacts it makes no sense. A comet entering the solar system at an angle to the ecliptic would result in variations of both longitude and latitude, or have I missed something?
Simple. It wouldn't fit his theory if the impacts were scattered over a broad area. Don't many theories create their own realities? For example, global warming and evolution.
Thanks Monk, I was ready to hand in my club necktie!
The trouble with fiddling things like that is that it only helps damage what otherwise might be a sensible idea.
Are you disputing that the Babylonians exiled a number of Jews in the aftermath of Nebuchadnezzar's attack? Even the bible admits that.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
Holy Smokes Monk, you hit a nerve with this one. Two pages in 12 hours.
Thanks for doing the homework on the time period.
My interest comes from it seeming to be a time that kept popping up when reading about all kind of diverse things. History, astro-archeology, plain old dirty archeology, and Biblical history, among some. This will be a learniing experience for me.
It just struck me that, at this time frame, a lot people all over the Earth started doing basically the same thing. They built big things with astronomical alignments.
I guess I don’t care if we get it down to the month and year. Within a hundred years would be more then I was expecting.
We are on the edge of so called recorded history here, and there seems to be a lot of astronomical based exactness interspersed with a lot of “many moons ago”. (Or in the words of Mesopotamia “In the days of our Fathers.”)
Mix that with the ever changing world of dating technology and you could start a war over 10 years. It isn’t worth it.
BTY, what was the dating of the “Stonehenge” they found in the mountains of Peru?
Are you disputing that the Babylonians exiled a number of Jews in the aftermath of Nebuchadnezzar's attack? Even the bible admits that.
No I am not disputing that. I am disputing the claim that the flood story and other basic elements of Hebrew scriptures did not exist until after 587bce. Realizing that actual scrolls are nonexistent, there are clues with in the documents themselves which indicate that the stories predate Nebuchadnessar. The doumentary hypothesis confirms that Genesis may have been written during the monarchial period prior to collapse of the northern kingdom and the diaspora at the hands of the Assyrians. This is clear evidence, that the stories existed for the hebrews prior to writing them.
(My statement has also roused Marduk, who has been busy blasting at me this morning on another forum. He said he agrees with you, Min.)
Thanks to the rediscovery in recent times, of considerable portions of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hittite, and Canaanite literature, it is now possible to recognize in the Bible several traces of ancient Near Eastern mythology.
These appear in three forms:
Direct Parallels
Allusions
Survivals (in figurative expressions)
In all cases they are accommodated to the religion of Israel by boldly transferring to Yahweh the heroic feats of older/other pagan gods.
Sumerian literature contained a number of literary forms and themes found much later in the Bible.
Some of the more conspicuous themes involve:
The creation of the universe
The creation of Man
The techniques used in creation
Paradise (Eden or Dilmun)
The withholding of immortality from man
The ‘Cain-Abel’ motif
The ‘Tower of Babel’ motif
The earth and its organization
Divine retribution and natural catastrophe
The plague
The ‘Job’ motif
Death and the under world
Concerns with law, ethics and morality
The flood (the story that has the closest connection with biblical literature.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
I tend to agree with you on these points Min. It seems society was well in to a state of advancement when a series of disasters struck 2200-1500bce. I'll have to see if a can come up with a Tower of Babel theory.
Monk, I don't quite know where you're headed with this one. Beyond the Akkadian collapse due to an extensive drought circa. 2200bce (clearly marked on the following graph) there isn't much to write home about until the Santorini eruption in 1628bce (Mt. Etna erupted circa. 1784bce but it wasn't a major event).
The world's population estimate for 3000bce is 14 million, nearly doubling to 27 million in 2000bce. If there were a "series of disasters" they sure didn't affect reproduction. The 2200bce climate collapse brought down the Akkadian empire while Egypt's administrative infrastructure fell apart. So, how does this relate to the Tower of Babel?
I could have warned you Monk that Marduk would blow a fuse (hi Steve).
If you check earlier posts I argued that you couldn't date stories from when they were written down and cited the Aborigines 'Deam Time' as an example, and spent the next few days with a dunces cap on. (Guess who gave me that?)
That tracks pretty well with the end of the Old Kingdom and the start of the First Intermediate Period of Egyptian history.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.
