Upheavals in the Third Millenium BCE

[Forum Monk]

Some discussion was begun on other threads relating to the seeming simultaneous emergence of megalithic building, great monuments, mighty civilizations and their subsequent collapse and a possible great migration period all within the general time frame of the third millenium BCE.

• Caucasian Dolmens
  Carnac stones of france
  Newgrange, Stonehenge, and Avebury
  White pyramid of China
  Pyramid of Hellinikon
  Pyramids of Egypt
  Ziggurats of Mesopotamia

Many scholars have concluded that the late 3rd millenium was a time of upheavals and catastrophes and many explanations have been offered:

• Biblical flood
  Comet impact
  Volcano
  Climate change

I would like to initiate some discussion of this time period by posting some theories (one at a time) and see what kind of opinions exist.

[Forum Monk]

The Comet Impact Theory
There are several flavors of this theory to explain the near simultaneous collapse of civilizations in the mid 3rd millenium.

I have chosen to post this one because it provides a nice summary of the state of development in the world prior to the collapse.

http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari2.htm

Now I propose my theory: the Earth was hit in 2194 or 2193 BC by a comet which had spread into many parts, as did Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 which hit Jupiter in 1994 AD. The Dead Sea lies at latitude 31 degrees N, and the badly devastated Mohenjo-Daro on the shores of Indus had a latitude of 28 degrees N. China's Yangtze area has a latitude of around 30 degrees. N. (Impact latitude is stable, longitude varies, such as it did for Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9.) This latitude is also the latitude between Canary Islands and Madeira.

The incidence of 2345-2344 BC may have been an Anatolian event, destroying most badly the area from Troy (IIg) to Tell Leilan. The incidence of 2194-2193 BC surely had a global frame. Mahabharata may describe what happened at Mohenjo-dara, Indus. Edda may describe what happened in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Forum Monk]

The Climate Change Theory

http://www.geo.umass.edu/faculty/bradley/weiss2001.pdf

Following the return to wetter conditions, politically centralized and class-based urban societies emerged and expanded across the riverine and dry-farming landscapes of the Mediterranean, Egypt and West Asia. The Akkadian empire of Mesopotamia, the pyramid-constructing Old Kingdom civilization of Egypt, the Harappan 3B civilization of the Indus valley, and the Early Bronze III civilizations of Palestine, Greece and Crete all reached their economic peak at about 2300 BC. This period was abruptly terminated before 2200 BC by catastrophic drought and cooling that generated regional abandonment, collapse, and habitat-tracking. Paleoclimatic data from numerous sites, document changes in the Mediterranean westerlies and monsoon rainfall during this event (see the figure) with precipitation reductions of up to 30%, that diminished agricultural production from the Aegean to the Indus (9-11).

[Charlie Hatchett]

Something certainly happened prior to 12,000 B.P. (14C). The wide spread gravel caps across central Texas are evidence to a catastrophe of huge proportions. One thing we have to keep in mind is calendar years and 14C dates are not equal, and much debate in academia exists over how 14C dates should be calibrated. If CO2 levels were greater in the periods between 3,000 cya and present, many 14C dates would greatly exceed calendar years.

[Forum Monk]

Yeah, about 10000bce was another major upheaval time driven by climatic changes. Huge amounts of ice was melting and some pretty big floods struck large areas. The Pacific Northwest is a prime example.

But something may have happend in the more recent past as well.

btw - C14 dating is a thread unto itself.

[Forum Monk]

Volcano Theory?
Probably not global but Santorini had a major impact on the world around the eastern Mediterranian around the 1500's.

Here is an interesting link about more trouble from pesky space things:
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc082702.html

Some of the discussion contained in the article:

(1) PERILOUS ASTEROIDS PLAY HIDE-AND-SEEL WITH NASA
Chicago Tribune, 23 August 2002

(2) COSMIC IMPACTS AND CIVILISATION COLLAPSE @ THE LONDON CATASTROPHE MEETING
The Geological Society of London, August 2002

(3) DID ASTEROIDS AND COMETS TURN THE TIDES OF CIVILIZATIONS?
DISCOVERING ARCHAEOLOGY, July/August 1999

(4) IGNORING EYE-WITNESS ACCOUNTS: ANOTHER RESEARCHER DOUBTS TUNGUSKA IMPACT EVENT
Andrew Yee <ayee@nova.astro.utoronto.ca>

(5) MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT - "IMPACTS: A GEOLOGICAL AND ASTRONOMICAL PERSPECTIVE"
Christian Koeberl <christian.koeberl@univie.ac.at>

(6) PLUTO EVENTS PERPLEX ASTRONOMERS
Sky & Telescope, 23 August 2002

(7) NASA APPOINTS CONTOUR MISSION INVESTIGATION TEAM
NASANews@hq.nasa.gov

(8 ) WILL CONTOUR DISASTER CAUSE DETRIMENT TO PLANNED PLUTO MISSION?
Space Daily, 26 August 2002

(9) METEOR MISSES US BY A MILE
MacArthur Chronicle, Australia, 27th August 2002

(10) FLOODS IN CZECH REPUBLIC AFFECT KLET OBSERVATORY
http://www.klet.org/flood.html

(11) RE: FATAL WEAKNESS OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE
David H. Levy <david@jarnac.org>

(12) ST. COLUMBA
Pavel Chichikov <fishhook@erols.com>

(13) ST. COLUMBA: A RESPONSE
E.P. Grondine <epgrondine@hotmail.com>

(14) AND FINALLY: "WE'RE ALL DOOMED, BECAUSE OF ASTEROID SCARES!"
Private Eye (London), issue 1060, 9-22 August 2002.

[Forum Monk]

Biblical Flood Theory
I am curious too, about how much serious attention, the world-wide flood theory will get, so at the risk of major flame wars, I will start with this link which also links to an old Ignatius Donnelly treatise of catastrophism and the bible.

http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html

Although the fundamental premise of the creationist approach emphasized the infallibility of literal reading of the bible, few were as aware as those who hold the bible as a daily guide to their lives that the good book was rife with improbabilities and in some cases outright contradictions. Whitcomb and Morris, in one of those necessary departures from literal reading of the scriptures that nonetheless surprise anyone trying to follow their reasoning, concluded that the traditional Ussher flood date of 2450 BC (or its variant of 2459 BC) is probably too recent. On the other hand, noting the similarity of the Sumerian and Biblical flood stories, they consider it impossible that the flood could be vastly older than the stories because the Sumerian version (having been passed on by mere oral tradition, rather than having its truth covered by a divine assurance) was so strikingly similar to the biblical account; surely it would never have retained its similarity to the biblical story if the two traditions had bifurcated many thousands of years before their respective recordings in the first millennium B.C.

Morris quotes one authority who places the date at 3835 BC (based on Abraham birth date of 2167 BC and 1688 years elapsed time between birth of Abraham and flood (John Urquhart, How Old is Man, 1904 Morris p 481)) Elsewhere Morris suggests that the date was in excess of 5000 years ago, though he allowed that some interpretations suggesting that as much as 5000 years had elapsed between the deluge and Abram, which pushes the date of the flood as far back as 7000 BC, stretched the limits of Genesis "almost to the breaking point."

[Charlie Hatchett]

btw - C14 dating is a thread unto itself.

Roger that. I'll back out of your discussion, seeing 14C calibration is completely irrelevant.

[Forum Monk]

Roger that. I'll back out of your discussion, seeing 14C calibration is completely irrelevant.

Naw, I wouldn't say its irrelevant. Its relevent to so many things we should start a new thread. But I am not ready to do it because I have recently begun digging into C14 in more depth.

[Charlie Hatchett]

Roger that. I'll back out of your discussion, seeing 14C calibration is completely irrelevant.

Naw, I wouldn't say its irrelevant. Its relevent to so many things we should start a new thread. But I am not ready to do it because I have recently begun digging into C14 in more depth.

Roger, Bro.

I certainly agree to periodic catastrophes throughout history. Run across any references concerning finite 14C dates existing in Pennsylvanian fossils?

http://www.icr.org/pdf/research/RATE_IC ... ardner.pdf

[Minimalist]

I can't get the comet thing to open but...

the Earth was hit in 2194 or 2193 BC

by this time, Stonehenge was 300 years old and the Great Pyramid was 250 years old, even if you accept the time line put forward by The Club. So, its hard to reconcile a post-apocalyptic society building anything before the apocalypse.

[Minimalist]

Probably not global but Santorini had a major impact on the world around the eastern Mediterranian around the 1500's.

Santorini has been triangulated via dendrochronology, C14 dating and ice core readings at around 1625 BC. Again, by that time, the GP and Stonehenge were already nearly a millenium old.

There is no doubt that the explosion would have had a major impact on the region and certainly contributed to political instability...but Crete, Egypt, and the Hittites survived.

[Minimalist]

surely it would never have retained its similarity to the biblical story if the two traditions had bifurcated many thousands of years before their respective recordings in the first millennium B.C.

Ignores the reality that the exiled hebrews were sitting around in Babylon being exposed to Babylonian mythology on a daily basis. There was no equal development between the two. The Hebrews copied the story, edited it to fit their needs and incorporated it into their text. It is as clear an example of syncretism as one can expect to find.

[Cognito]

Monk:

Probably not global but Santorini had a major impact on the world around the eastern Mediterranian around the 1500's.

Min:

Santorini has been triangulated via dendrochronology, C14 dating and ice core readings at around 1625 BC. Again, by that time, the GP and Stonehenge were already nearly a millenium old.

There is no doubt that the explosion would have had a major impact on the region and certainly contributed to political instability...but Crete, Egypt, and the Hittites survived.

Santorini most likely blew during the fall of 1628bce due to the prevailing winds. The explosion did have a major impact on the region. Phoenician and Minoan trade was completely disrupted at least for a decade with the northern Crete ports being devastated. Western Anatolia saw thousands die from toxic ash and the Hittites moved into the area thereafter. The Minoans never fully recovered and the Hyksos Empire was dust within 50 years.

[Forum Monk]

by this time, Stonehenge was 300 years old and the Great Pyramid was 250 years old, even if you accept the time line put forward by The Club. So, its hard to reconcile a post-apocalyptic society building anything before the apocalypse.

by this time, Stonehenge was 300 years old and the Great Pyramid was 250 years old, even if you accept the time line put forward by The Club. So, its hard to reconcile a post-apocalyptic society building anything before the apocalypse.

I tend to agree with you on these points Min. It seems society was well in to a state of advancement when a series of disasters struck 2200-1500bce. I'll have to see if a can come up with a Tower of Babel theory.

As Charlie mentioned earlier, the 10000-9000bce era was also marked by major changes in climate, geology, and distribution of human activities.